Pat Murphy
Hi and welcome to the MCA Prodcast, your fix for everything innovative in advertising production. I’m Pat Murphy and I’ve been working in this industry for more than 35 years now. I’ve seen a lot of changes, but know there’s plenty more around the corner. Each week on the podcast, you’ll get to hear from one of the movers and shakers who are shaping the world of advertising for the future, and we’ll dive into some of the key challenges facing our sector today and how we’re best placed to overcome them.

Today we’re talking to Kristen Cavallo, the outgoing Global CEO of MullenLowe. She’s a dynamic leader, highly engaged with her client partners and committed to helping brands innovate. As she says, ‘a brand’s greatest threat is its own comfort zone’. She was the Chief Strategy Officer and President at Mullen and for the past few years she’s stewarded The Martin Agency to great heights Under Kristen’s leadership. In 2021 and 2022, Martin was recognized as US Agency of the Year and in 2023, Martin was named Ad Ages Agency of the Year and made the coveted Fast Company Most Innovative Companies list. Kristen is a leading voice in the advertising industry, taking on important social and business issues and she’s about to pursue a career in politics.

Kristen, welcome to our podcast. Great pleasure to have you here today.

Kristen Cavallo
Thank you so much. I appreciate your time.

Pat Murphy
Look. Your background as a child of an Army Intelligence Officer and your experience of living in Germany resonated with me personally. You and I have talked about that. My father was also in the British Navy. How has that shaped your career trajectory?

Kristen Cavallo
I hope you would feel the same, but I considered my upbringing pretty wonderful and I feel very lucky. We moved quite a bit but I never felt displaced. You know, I think that was my norm, and so I think what it did teach me is to not fear change, and it taught me how to break down problems into pieces. He had a high bar of expectation. He would give us a lot of word problems at dinner and make us think through things, because he wanted us to learn to think for ourselves. I remember the first time I learned that I got the chance to vote, he actually brought out a flip chart and made me make a case and argument for who I was going to vote for and why, and then every night that for a whole week he would come back and say ‘how are you going to deal with the droughts in the middle of the country and how are you going to deal with the drug issue in this country’? He tried to make us very aware of what was going on in the world, as I think a military intelligence person probably would do, to understand that the world doesn’t centre around you, but that you are a piece of a bigger world.

Pat Murphy
Definitely. My father would always say ‘good enough is never good enough’ , so he always used to set the bar very, very high. Do you do the same thing with your own kids?

Kristen Cavallo
No, I probably should have. Oh my God! I’m having like a parenting crisis moment right now. Luckily, my kids are 27 and 20. So the 27 year old is out. He actually works in advertising, so he is followed… he’s on the creative side, not the strategy side, but he’s in the industry. And then my daughter just changed her major into business and marketing, so we’ll see what she decides to do. She’s in college.

I would say I feared my father a lot more than I think they fear me. But one thing we do… my dad has passed, so did the same, do the same is we were really big travellers, my family. Not only did we move a lot, but we were always going somewhere. We had a book called Europe on $10 a day, and my dad was committed to not only making sure we saw all of Europe, but on no more than $10 a day! And my kids and I have gone to all seven continents. I take them with me everywhere. I think they’ve been bit by the bug, like I was, and like my daughter’s, actually in Belfast today. So I that part the kind of eagerness to see the world and understand your place in it and role in it definitely has travelled.

Pat Murphy
I find myself saying some of the same things that my dad used to say to me, and I’m kind of like oh…

Kristen Cavallo
Like what? Like what?

Pat Murphy
Like ‘oh, make sure you eat your dinner, because there are lots of starving kids in the world’, whatever it is. So those kinds of things and yeah, it’s funny!

Now talking of travel, you have an incredibly adventurous spirit, including scaling Mount Kilimanjaro with your son Matt to exploring all sorts of other iconic destinations Great Wall of China, Petra, Congo and that speaks volumes about your passion, your you know your travel freak, right? How does this deep-seated love for exploration influence the leadership style that you’ve got?

Kristen Cavallo
I think I’m not likely to assume that one size fits all. I recognise that even before I took on this global role, but certainly since I took on the global role at MullenLowe, I recognise that there are a lot of people who come from different world views, different faiths, different belief systems, and that my role as a CEO is not necessarily to be restrictive or to mandate one way of doing things, but to find ways to be supportive to the many.

I think that came into light for me most pronounced when in the United States they overturned Roe v Wade. I was actually in Barcelona at the time and my daughter called me from the United States and she said ‘I’m surprised you haven’t posted yet’. And I said ‘what are you talking about’? And she said ‘Well, there’s all these potential employees or current employees that are probably wondering what does this mean’? And I think up until then, the previous six or 10 hours, I’d just been absorbing what that might have meant to me or for her. I hadn’t been thinking about what it meant as the CEO of a big company and so obviously there would be a lot of fear in putting your policy into LinkedIn, which is what I did. I went on to LinkedIn and wrote a post, and I made sure that our policy was one that would recognise that there are various health histories and religious points of view that may not be mine, but that my job as a CEO was to find health care supportive for all of them in their moments and I think that worldview gives me that broader perspective. But it also underscores to me that I think at the heart of so many countries, we all want the same things. We want our loved ones to feel loved, we want to feel a sense of peace and security, we want to take care of the people close to us and we want fulfilling role jobs, whether that be at home or at work, and those things I think are true regardless of where we find ourselves.

Pat Murphy
So I’m guessing that that also influences the way that you’ve made the changes in D&I policies at the Martin Agency.

Kristen Cavallo
It does. When I came back into Martin, I had worked here for about 13 years, left for eight years to go to MullenLowe and then come back, and every study I’d ever read said that when you have a diverse leadership team, you have higher margin, higher morale, higher revenue. And yet our leadership team at the time – and I think Martin was no different from many leadership teams at the time in the industry – was largely white and largely male, and I was finally in a position where I could personally do something about it, and so I doubled the number of women almost overnight, like within two weeks. I added the first people of colour. I created roles where I needed to, and I don’t think the enemy is not male or white, the enemy is homogeny. It’s not anything malicious but I think you only really see things from your perspective, right? As hard as we try to be empathetic and to see things from other perspectives. You have your own lived experiences. So being able to have a team now with more diversity allows me the ability to hear more perspectives before I come up with a decision and understand the implications of how that decision will land, and I have fewer blind spots because I have more diversity and leadership and the fewer blind spots I think increases the probability of success, and so it’s also dramatically changed our output. It’s changed the work we do. If you looked at our reel before and looked at our reel after, it would feel like a completely different company. The ideas we’re dreaming up, the way we’re making them, the way we’re producing them are very different. And again, I don’t think it’s malicious intent on the prior side and I don’t subscribe to those points of view that, like the future is female, because I think reverse-homogeny is equally dangerous.

Pat Murphy
I agree with you.

Now I hear that you’re a bit of a client stalker. Now, I don’t mean that literally. What I mean is you like to follow people that you are interested in for their whole careers and you stay in touch as regularly as you possibly can.

Kristen Cavallo
I do. I’m more brave. I’m also braver when I’m introducing myself over email or LinkedIn than I am probably in person. But early on, I think, I took over a new business in Martin in 2004 and I had a different philosophy than I think, most of the industry at the time. A lot of the common questions you get as a new business person is you know, ‘what brand or category do you want to play in?’  And people will often say, ‘oh, I don’t have an airline’, or ‘I don’t have a pizza company’, or ‘I don’t have a car’, and I think that is a flawed way, because you’re making the assumption that any car will create good advertising. The truth is, any car deserves good advertising. All cars deserve good advertising. All cars can have good advertising, but not all corporations equally believe in the power of creativity to solve a business problem. What I realised is that the major variable was not the industry that we were missing or desiring, but it was the person at the company that would open the floodgates for creativity.

Linkedin, for me, was just one of those inventions that was hugely helpful. I could look at work in the world that I liked and then I could go on to LinkedIn and I could find the people who did it. But I could also find the people right around them, so that I could follow the people one or two people apart. So I knew who tutored them, I knew what they witnessed, I knew how they grew up and how they were taught. I would follow these people and sometimes it brought me to brands that I would never have coveted in a category that maybe felt sleepy or predictable. My favourite kind of advertising is when I have a really brave client at an industry or a brand that’s not done something great or interesting before and then I think, ‘oh, we’re going to take the world by surprise’.

Pat Murphy
You’re a global CEO of a really interesting global advertising group, MullenLowe and you have a dirty secret.

Kristen Cavallo
I do?

Pat Murphy
You do? You have a dirty secret You’ve never been to a film shoot.

Kristen Cavallo
I have never been to a film shoot.

Pat Murphy
How? Why? WTF? How do you get to being in that position without ever having been to a shoot?

Kristen Cavallo
I’ve never been to South by Southwest. I’ve never been to Advertising Week. I wanted to see if I could actually retire without ever having been to Cannes. Part of it was that I’m a strategist and so strategists spent a lot more time in the back room of focus group facilities when I was growing up. Now I’m not even sure that focus groups as a tool are used that often. I’m a stats major and so I spent a lot of time looking at data. I spent a lot of time cutting the data and looking for outliers and things that are interesting. Growing up, I was never on the shortlist of who goes on a shoot. That was always account people and producers and creatives. By the time I got into a senior leadership position, I’d spent the majority of my career having never done it. Then I just said I wonder if I could actually end my career without ever having done it. It’s kind of a humble brag, but I don’t humbly brag about it because I’m trying to say that producers or production isn’t important. They are and it is. It’s just more that I want people to know that leadership can look like a lot of different things and that leaders can come from anywhere in the company.

I think sometimes we default to certain disciplines when we think of the future leaders of a company. There’s a creative guy at Martin, Alberto Orte, who recently wrote a whole post on LinkedIn about how unorthodox it is for creatives to now be CEOs. It’s a wonderful post. I would encourage anyone to go read it. He’s a very good writer and incredibly thoughtful. It’s sad that that became unorthodox. It’s sad that every time we’ve just defaulted in the same way that it not only shores up one group to thinking these are the leaders, but it makes deposits in the insecurity of the other disciplines. That makes them wonder if they’re not capable. I was very intentional when I handed off the reins at MullenLowe US and Martin to pick a Chief Creative Officer as the CEO.

Pat Murphy
Now here’s a production question. I know you’ve never been on a shoot, but clients are looking for more and more assets and the budget never seems to go up. Do you think production plays a much greater part in the creative process now than it ever has before? And at what time is it best to bring your production team into that process?

Kristen Cavallo
We don’t necessarily bring them in at the brief, but we definitely bring them in from the very first stages of the tissue sessions seeing ideas, because I think that it’s important to give them time if they start to see that we’re gravitating towards an idea that’s really interesting or new – or newish – that they have time also to sort through how they’re going to make sure that that idea can come to fruition. The time in this process of creating ads has so collapsed that I think not strategists are certainly getting robbed. It’s rare that we get to go out and see real people and uncover insights. We have days, maybe even hours, to write a brief.

Creative people have their ideation time condensed, but producers sometimes their bag of tricks… I can see why they would default to the same bag, often, because they just don’t have time to figure out ‘how am I going to do something new’? And yet a lot of the burden for taking something from a dream to a reality falls on the producer and their ability to pull that off. And so I think bringing them into the tissue session, not to kill things early but to give them time to figure out how to make it, is important.

Pat Murphy
Yeah, I think the producer role in many agencies is the unsung hero, actually. They never really get the credit or the profile that they ever deserve because they’re taking something, they’re taking a creative vision and making it happen. Would you concur with that?

Kristen Cavallo
I would. In fact, my head of production at Martin – a woman named Tasha Dean, became such a major ally for me because of her ability to figure out anything. She’s like a Swiss Army knife, but with a degree of confidence and humility that makes her so important that I just recently named her two years ago to the Chief Revenue Officer of the company, because I thought I need her not just dreaming and thinking up how to make this creative idea, but where I should take the agency. Where do we need to be making bets that would allow us to recoup some lost revenue? What businesses should we be in? Because she’s both, in equal parts, a doer and a dreamer, as I think a good producer needs to be.

Pat Murphy
That’s fantastic. I need to meet her obviously.

Kristen Cavallo
She’s amazing. She’s got also the most contagious laugh on the planet, so that’ll be helpful.

Pat Murphy
That’s good. We’ll have a laugh together.

As a strategist, Martin Sorrell said that we’re now in the era of math men, not mad men. So, bringing creativity and data together and I spoke to the founder of Media Monks only a little bit earlier on today on another podcast and he thinks that bringing the data and creativity together is absolutely critical in today’s advertising. How important is data-driven creativity for you and your agencies?

Kristen Cavallo
Certainly it’s important because I think every client is held accountable and therefore agencies are held accountable.

I think it’s sometimes misused and I also meaning it’s used more often on the back end instead of the front end, as an evaluator of ideas as opposed to an enabler of bravery.
We spend too much time in the bell curve and not enough time in the front end of the bell curve. By the time we make something even though, again, that timing has collapsed and we can dream up something, make it and get it out in the world in a matter of hours, you’re still, if you’re doing that, largely following, even if you’re a fast-follower. More time needs to be spent on the front end, which means you need to be looking at the outliers in the data, not where the bulk of people are in the data. So I think that means that we have to have access to the data early on and then you have to have bravery when you look at the data and you have to be asking the right questions, and I think too often our questions are predictable and too often we’re looking for the majority, and those two things I think are understandable, but they’re also flaws.

Pat Murphy
Now, on a recent podcast that I did with Rishad Tobaccowala, he suggested that there’s no experts in AI. Everything is changing so fast that people just can’t keep up and we’ve only been talking about AI really for about the last 12, 18 months. How do you think AI is going to change the creative process? Do you think that there’s a new craft now in AI? Is it something like prompt engineering that’s going to be the new craft in the world of creativity.

Kristen Cavallo
I’ll start with the last part. I actually think prompt engineering, or asking the right questions, has always been a key to the difference between good and great. Knowing which questions are the right questions to ask and which questions everyone’s asking that maybe aren’t worthy is of vital importance. We don’t ask smart enough questions, we don’t ask insightful enough questions, and so I think that if that becomes a vocation and not just a luck, then we’re all the better for it. I think the AI has already brought us, from an art perspective, enormous things of beauty, and I think it’s facilitated our ability to dream with a lot more clarity, because you can envision it much easier.

I think there’s the potential we risk commoditisation with AI, but I think we’ve always risked being a commodity, and throughout history we’ve had tech advancements all the time that people have often said ‘well, this is going to remove the need for copywriters’ or ‘the newspapers dying, people are going to stop reading’. But the truth is the camera didn’t remove our need or love of painters and computer aided design didn’t remove our need or our desire or dependency on architects. It just means that we have to be more open to change and we need to be less tied to what we do or how we define ourselves and, more, why we do it and the value that we bring. I’m choosing to think really optimistically. Honestly, I don’t live in fear, but I am also a huge sci-fi fan.

Pat Murphy
You’re not a trekkie are you?  Are you a trekkie?

Kristen Cavallo
I’m a trekkie! I’ve been to a Trek convention, I’m a Star Wars Junkie, I’m an Azumafan, the whole thing. I heard someone from Salesforce speak in Cannes this year and she made a really good point when she said ‘remember when we landed on the moon, it made us wonder if we could ever create a telescope’. Or when I saw the Mars rover land, you know, last year, and it had the parachute that opened and it lands on this far away planet that we would only have dreamt about when I was growing up with the TV show the Jetsons. It’s just going to allow us to tell stories in ways we’ve never told them before. And that doesn’t mean that the Gutenberg Bible Press wasn’t hugely important, and it doesn’t mean the Bible is not important just because we’re going to tell new stories in new ways.

Pat Murphy
So I’m kind of curious now that now you’ve told me that you’re a Trekkie and you go to the conventions.

Kristen Cavallo
I went to one convention…

Pat Murphy
Who do you go as when you get dressed up in the kit? Who are you?

Kristen Cavallo
It was actually a mistake. I walked in not knowing what it was. It was at the Boston Convention Centre, but I will say I stayed for a lot longer than I should have when I got there and I wished I was dressed up. Halloween is one of my favourite holidays. Certainly I put a lot of thought into… I just sold my house recently and downsized into a condo and I live in a condo that’s actually in an old church, so there are seven units in this church and I was very happily pleased to see that this year for Halloween that everyone dressed in a religious theme. But it was like there was a pregnant nun and a drunk monk and I was actually an angel with no ulterior motive, and I actually worried a little bit that I was. I played it too straight. I’m going to have to raise my game next year.

Pat Murphy
No, it’s brilliant. My son has taken to Star Trek so he’s getting into all the various different, all the different seasons and all the different versions of Star Trek that have been through the years and he settled on The Next Generation. He loves The Next Generation. That’s the one he likes most.

Kristen Cavallo
Well, Jean-luc Picard, I mean he has to be one of the greatest actors of all time and he brought such a sense of legitimacy to Star Trek that I think previously was a cult phenomena and even the butt of jokes.  But his acting is legit and so I think it opened that series up to a whole bunch of different people.

I did yesterday I say recently, it was literally yesterday I did a Zoom session with some of my employees from Asia and it was first some female employees and one of the questions that came up is ‘who are my role models’? And interesting one of my answers because I was growing up at a time when I didn’t see a lot of female role models and honestly, I wasn’t looking for only females, it didn’t even occur to me but Lieutenant Ahura was one of those role models because she was a woman on the bridge. I think she was the only woman on the bridge, which is their version of a conference room. She spoke three languages, she was in a technical role and she was thought of as an equal and it influenced me that and she and Nancy Drew were probably my two influences growing up that made me think that there’s something cool about being smart and being an independent thinker and holding your own.

Pat Murphy
Brilliant.

With Danny’s elevation to CEO at the Martin Agency. How do you think that someone in a role as CCO can take to being a CEO, mixing the commercial and creative? Does that really work well in this instance?

Kristen Cavallo
I’m betting on it! I think it’s crazy that we ever thought it couldn’t. Some of the best work has been made by agencies helmed by creative people. So I think it’s more of an indictment on the industry that we’ve travelled so far from the product we make, that we think that it’s unorthodox to have a creative person. Even within corporations we value the people that work their way up from the mailroom to the CEO because they’ve put in the time to learn the business. You know, we value the fact that maybe the CEO at Harley rides a Harley, so I don’t know why we would divorce that thinking within advertising.

I think the people that make and dream up the products understand the business in a new and different way than maybe the people who understand the consumer like me or whatnot. But I also know Danny to be a very thoughtful and wise person. I mean, I’m not saying that any creative person can be a CEO, but I think that’s also true of any account person or any strategist. I think certain people can take that role and you have to have a lot of thick skin, you have to have a lot of courage, you have to be able to stand firm in insecurity and uncertainty, because everyone’s looking at you and depending on you, and so there’s a degree to which that leadership is independent of a discipline. But I think creatives have been taught to have thick skin, because the majority of their ideas die right and they have to keep going back to the well and dreaming up another with the same fervour and excitement that they did on day one.

But I also just watched how people reacted to him when he walked into a room. They felt at ease, they felt comforted, they listened, they also respect him, and I think that that was all really important and it was important to me. I wanted to leave the company to a creative person. As I said, that was intentional. I wanted to leave the company to a person of colour or a minority, and I also wanted to leave the company in the hands of someone who loved Martin as much as I did or more, and Danny… I’d been here since 1998. He’d been here since 2004. I’ve grown up with him here and I knew that he knew what was special about this company and he would protect it.

Pat Murphy
Now I was interviewed once to be head of production at The Martin Agency I think we’ve talked about this before…

Kristen Cavallo
You mentioned it!

Pat Murphy
Hey, I didn’t get the job.

Kristen Cavallo
I can’t be held responsible for that <laugh>.

Pat Murphy
The role of agency producer has evolved so much over the last 20, 25 years. The kind of skills now required to do that job is so different. And where do you find the kind of talent that is needed to do – not just what we would have regarded as like a television ad? You’re doing more than TV ads. You’re doing all sorts of non-traditional advertising like branded entertainment, virtual experiences, that kind of stuff in your agency. How do you find the talent to deliver on that?

Kristen Cavallo
It’s a really good question because you’re right that the sheer volume of scopes on a client contract has just exploded.

You’ll make hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pieces, thousands of pieces, depending on if you’re doing the performance work for a brand in a year, and that shadows what we used to make as a whole agency.

But the upside is – to your point, because you’re making branded content and entertainment and advertising and performance and TikTok and everything is that the places that we can find good people has expanded as well! There are big thinkers in many of these disciplines, and so we can look to Netflix, we can look to Hollywood, we can look to TikTok, we can look to other ad agencies, we can look to in-house agencies, we can look to tech companies, and so it’s more about finding the right fit in some respects as a personality, and do they really click with your creative teams? I think the creative teams… we want the creatives to think really big and not be hindered by what we’ve done before, and the only way they can do that is if they believe their production partner, whether it be the person or the companies that we choose, have the ability to pull it off. If not, then the thinking becomes smaller, because they start thinking about what they know we can do instead of what we might do, and so the key is finding the dreamers.

Pat Murphy
So you’ve reached the pinnacle now of your career. What’s next for you? What’s around the corner?

Kristen Cavallo
I hope it’s not the pinnacle of my life. Yeah, the pinnacle of this, of my ad career. More and more of my headspace is being monopolized by questions having to do with social change, and I look at this year from an election perspective. Worldwide, we’re having more democratic elections globally than I think we’ve ever had. Because of the role of social media, because of the role of bots and fake news, we have more divisiveness than we’ve ever had before.

I don’t know that we’ve changed the way we’re sharing our policies with people and trying to get people on board as much as we’ve changed advertising, and I have wondered if some of the muscles that I’ve earned in the ad business could be used to help, maybe in the political realm or in the social change realm, communicate in ways that can create more unity and help us find each other again and work on the better angels of our nature.

Pat Murphy
Well, I’m looking forward to seeing you make designs on running at some point! Then let’s see what happens.

Kristen Cavallo
We’ll see. Right now I can help other people run. I’ll help other people run.

Pat Murphy
Now you also do a lot of charity work. Tell me a little bit about the stuff that you care about.

Kristen Cavallo
Oh, thank you for asking that. It’s a rare question to get. I’m not on many boards, I don’t have an enormous amount of time and it’s really important to me to be connected to the things that I’m giving my time to. So I’m actually only on three, affiliated with three causes. One is teenage depression with the Cameron Gallagher Foundation.  One is a group called New Hope Homes in Rwanda. I’ve been a part of that since the early 2000s and many of the children that I got to know there when they were quite young are now in college. So it’s fun to get to help them see what they want to dream to be in the world, and I’ve taken my kids to Rwanda with me and stayed very close to that organisation throughout the last 20 some years.

The other one right now the newest one is called the Richmond Forum and they’re known for their speech and debate program, and that one is exciting because I think that in a world of Zoom or video conference and videos like this, podcasting, etc. Our ability to articulate and communicate a point of view persuasively is becoming more and more important, and either written form or in video form, and so I think that one felt like something that was important to me and could help bring new voices and help them be heard. So those are the three causes.

Pat Murphy
I wish you continued good luck with all of those.

Kristen Cavallo
Thank you.

Pat Murphy
Unfortunately time’s running out, Kristen.

Kristen Cavallo
Oh, it was very fast!

Pat Murphy
I know we were having so much fun. Finally, I have the last question. It’s become the kind of favourite bit of the podcast that we do and I ask all of our guests this since it’s become this highlight… what’s your favourite ad of all time?

Kristen Cavallo
I have many, Luckily. I really like the industry that I’ve spent 30 years in, but my favourite would have to be the men wanted ad whether it’s myth or true from Ernest Shackleton as he was recruiting sailors for the endurance. It read “Men wanted for hazardous journey. Small wages, bitter cold, long months of complete darkness, constant danger. Safe return, doubtful. honour and recognition in event of success”. I loved it for its candor. I loved it because he didn’t try to polish it up to only be romantic and positive, and I loved it because the story of the endurance afterward really lived up to that recruitment ad.

It’s one of the greatest leadership stories, I think, of all time, and anyone who hasn’t read the book Endurance needs to certainly read it. It’s about teamwork and leadership and adventure and it literally if you were making it up you wouldn’t have made it up to be as grand or insurmountable as the truth actually was. So when I read that ad which preceded it… What’s also really fun about that story, which I’ll say is in order to fund the trip he agreed beforehand that he would bring a photographer and sell the images at the end, and that had not really been done before, and so because the photographer was on board we have images of that fateful experience that have led to more stories and more drama and more documentaries and movies, because you’re almost a witness. You’re bearing witness in ways that we couldn’t have if it was just a story told by mouth over and over again. It had legitimacy and substance to it. He was a marketer as well as a sailor.

Pat Murphy
I have to hold my hand up and say I’ve not read the book yet. Endurance. I’m going to go and read that now.

Pat Murphy
Yes, you do Get onto Amazon and buy the book,

Kristen Cavallo
Oh good, I don’t make anything from it!!

Pat Murphy
and we’ll make sure that that gets put up on our podcast website. It’s an unusual choice, so I love that. It’s great.  Kristen, thank you so much for having a chat to me today on the on the MCA podcast.

Kristen Cavallo
It’s nice to meet you and I appreciate your time.

Pat Murphy
Today we talked to Kristen Cavallo, Global CEO of MullenLowe and the leading voice in the advertising industry. To find out more about the MCA podcast, please head to theprodcast.com, where you’ll find details on all my guests, links to their favourite ads and full transcriptions of all the episodes.

If you’d like to feature on the podcast or have any comments, questions or feedback, please email me at podcast@murphycobb.com. I’m Pat Murphy, CEO of MCA. Do come and connect with us on LinkedIn or Instagram, of which all the links in the notes for this episode will be there. We’d love to hear from you.

Thanks again to Kristen, my team at MCA and to my production team at What Goes On Media. Thanks for listening. See you next time.