Pat Murphy:
Hi and welcome to the MCA Prodcast, your fix for everything innovative in advertising production. I’m Pat Murphy and I’ve been working in this industry for more than 35 years now. I’ve seen a lot of changes, but know there’s plenty more around the corner. Each week on the podcast, you’ll get to hear from one of the movers and shakers who are shaping the world of advertising for the future and we’ll dive into some of the key challenges facing our sector today and how we’re best placed to overcome them.

This week though, something a little different as we bring you one of the brilliant panel sessions from the Little Black Book and Friends Beach which took place in Cannes in June of this year. We are all story tellers and this panel is about the art of storytelling and the business of creativity.

I was honoured to chair the panel and was joined by Doerte Spengler-Ahrens, the Chairwoman of Jung von Matt. She is one of Germany’s most-awarded creatives, long term Committee Chairwoman and now President of the Art Director’s Club in Germany.

Alongside her was Upasana Roy is Global Creative Strategy Director at Reckitt and Philipp Schuster who is Agency Management and Marketing Partnerships Director from Bayer Consumer Health.

Finally, John Hegarty completed the panel who you may have heard on a previous episode of the MCA Prodcast. John was a founding partner of Saatchi and Saatchi and BBH and is now Co-founder and Creative Director at The Garage Soho. He also runs a course called The Business of Creativity. Who better to have on a panel about ‘The Business of Creativity’?!

So let’s dive in! I began by asking the panel what ‘storytelling’ means to them, and how they use storytelling in their day-to-day roles. First, here’s Doerte.

Doerte Spengler-Ahrens:
For us, there’s no brand without a story. My last company was named Zaga, which is a Swedish word for telling stories about brands. So I’m totally convinced that if you want to move people, if you want to surprise them, you have to have an emotional impact. We call it momentum. Without momentum, some call it disruption. I think so, without that and emotional engagement, there is no success.

Upasana Roy:
When I think about stories, I think about memory. It’s like a little picture book, right? If I’ve been on a holiday and if I don’t have a story to tell about that holiday, I would not remember it. So stories are like little pockets of memory for me and I think that’s what brands aspire to do today – to create that memory and mental availability with our consumers. And in my role, I try to aspire to build memories with our consumers.

Pat Murphy:
Philip.

Philipp Schuster:
I think it may be more about – in the context of our industry. So we are actually both working in healthcare or in consumer health and I would say, historically, we haven’t maybe done a really good job of storytelling. Because it has a very functional background, product benefits and we really have to if we want to stay relevant with our brands. We have to become much better storytellers. I see it now more and more and you know, I think we embrace the challenge, but it’s something which maybe has not come natural to us in the past. So I think for the companies in our industry, those that are able to embrace that and to take this on and become good storytellers, they will be the ones who will be relevant in the future.

Pat Murphy:
Thanks, Philip.
John, over to you.

John Hegarty:
Yeah, I think I love that idea of memories because that’s one of the things that it’s about, but I also think it’s culture. From the beginning of time, people sat around the fire and a storyteller would talk about the world and what it was and how you related to it. And storytelling went from there throughout our lives and it is so fundamental to everything that we do.

And in a way, technology now is trying to usurp it. You know it’s almost trying to say ‘you don’t need it, you can do things in short, little slots, you can do things in little moments’, and that and it’s actually… some of it is trying to take our humanity away, and storytelling is part of our humanity and I think we have to fight back. I think we have to say no, no, no, you’re a service to us. I mean, you know, technology is brilliant, it’s fantastic, it allowed us to do all kinds of things, which is incredible.

But you know, I was at a conference and that was now about 15 years ago and it was about, the digital world was opening up and the speaker before me was talking about ‘we don’t need stories anymore because we can talk direct to the person’.  And half the audience were clapping and I thought I’m in front of a bunch of idiots. They’re complete fucking idiots. They don’t understand a thing about anything and I had to get up and talk about creativity and storytelling is fundamental to that.

But they genuinely believed technology had put that, didn’t need it. I could talk directly to you. Here’s the proposition, don’t need anything else. You know, sign up here, thank you very much, and I’ll take your money. That was the way they felt and thought, and so we have to remember storytelling is our humanity and that is truly profound and that’s truly, truly important to us.

Pat Murphy:
Actually, that comes neatly onto the next question. How can we keep the consistency of the right stories in an omni-channel world? You know there’s a ton of assets that clients now need to make, but somehow I think that, sometimes might mean losing the essence of the story.

Upasana – You’re nodding your head…

Upasana Roy:
It’s a really, really difficult question because we are all, as marketeers, grappling with it, as there’s content explosion right? Especially with generative AI and everything that’s happening in technology. Like you said. We are constantly grappling with that question. How do we still keep it relevant and keep it fresh, keep the story as heart and centre?

I think one of the things that I’ve learned personally is when you use technology to scale your content, you have to scale your insights as well. So, at the speed of which you scale your technology, scale your insights at the same level, because otherwise you’re going to end up with a bunch of cut-downs, and that’s not what anybody wants to watch, to be honest. So scaling insights has been my big learning and, overall, when you look at what people resonate with, there is a lot of data that’s available to us as creative data that I don’t think, as marketeers, we are using fast enough to actually tailor our content for it, and it could have been because of budget constraints or platform constraints, but now I think if we put the focus back and spotlight back on creativity and storytelling, it will force us to introspect at that data more personally, to say, every single piece of copy that I’m putting online has to be intentional and it cannot be just a distribution anymore! So at least that’s been my perspective so far in the volume game.

Pat Murphy:
And in the last couple of years you as a business at Reckitt have gone from being not just product sellers but also storytellers.

Upasana Roy:
Yeah.

Pat Murphy:
How’s that going for you?

Upasana Roy:
It’s been a wonderful journey and to see that shift happening and really getting the recognition internally and inspiring our marketers to do that has been an extremely gratifying experience for me.

Pat Murphy:
So, Philipp, can I come on to you, because you and I were chatting the other day and you said one of the most important things for you and your business, with the transformation that’s going on, is to find a way to get your creatives and your agency to bring out those scripts that are at the bottom drawer. How are you doing that? How are you creating that environment?

Philipp Schuster:
Yeah, so a few years ago we started a process called Creative Unleashed, which is basically a creative incubator for our agencies and us, because I think we realised that we really need to inject more creativity in healthcare. And Patricia Corsi, who just left us, also said I think we as an industry deserve better creativity. And we had tailwind with the pandemic. People were very much focused on their health and self-care the business we’re in, we want people to more practically look after their health.

I think this is an area where we just need better creative work, and how we do that is basically, once a year, we reach out to our agencies and basically give them a non-brief brief.

They can come to us with any idea they feel are relevant for our brands and then we look at those and the best idea gets executed. We support and fund that at a global level. Of course, we work with our markets to execute that, but it’s exactly about getting those hidden gems in every agency drawer, to get that out and to bring it to the forefront and bring it to life. And I can only say for the last couple of years we won a range of awards, we won five lines with those ideas. But it also inspired our teams and especially in our world, where we are very risk averse, we sometimes rather think what we can’t do than what we can do. These ideas and these processes help us to prove to our teams that, yeah, you know we can do that! Ask rather, why not than why? So that’s what we have done, it has been really important for us.
Upasana Roy: 13:52
It’s such a nice one one. I just wanted to say that I heard this new term this week called instead of FOMO it’s the FOMU, the fear of messing up! And I think what you just said is that you use the bottom drawer, so kind of negated that FOMU, which is great. I love that.

Pat Murphy:
I think I’m going to steal that. Where did you hear that?

Upasana Roy:
One of the other sessions. I’m going to steal it with pride!

Pat Murphy:
I’ve nicked it. I’m claiming it.
Doerte, I think you wanted to say something?

Doerte Spengler-Ahrens:
Yeah, I think it’s a historic moment because we have the chance – and hopefully we will all do it – to change the world of creativity.

First we started selling products in a great way and some legendary, great creators put emotion around it, stories around, I think, of Levi’s when I was little. So this was the start!

Then came the performance marketing guys and they said ‘ah agency, yeah, but maybe it’s more better to address people one-to-one’. And we have this fantastic, and it’s less money and la-la-la.

And now it’s the moment where it all comes back, because they think how do they understand now that performance marketing address one-to-one, as you just said, is the end of a relationship to a brand? It is only driven by pricing and, hopefully you have some advantage in your product that others don’t have. So change the world with creativity.

And one last sentence to that I guess that they had the pleasure to talk with my friend, Marco Venturelli, who did the plug-in for Renault. So instead of having another shiny car, super sexy, blah blah campaign, they just revolutionized the market for e-mobility in France. It’s like an Airbnb model, so you can go to somebody and plug in your car and have the yeah, recharge it. So this is so changed the world and for a product and you will never forget it. So they have 70% of to say that they are true to the clients. So the clients love them. They would never buy another car anymore. So this is what we should do!

Pat Murphy:
So, John. How does a client become a client of choice for an agency?

John Hegarty:
Well, a client becomes a client of choice for an agency because the agency is producing work that that client admires. We always used to say at BBH ‘all roads lead to the work’ and that’s all we cared about. And when you create outstanding hopefully outstanding communication, you attract other people to those ideas.

I think one of the problems with advertising agencies is that they’re all trying to be the same. We don’t think of agencies as brands, that ‘we do this, we don’t do that’. We spend our life advising clients about how to be a brand, but we’re not a brand ourselves! And you know, when we started BBH we, we said we wouldn’t do speculative creative work and we were criticized for that. And it was. And we said – no, it’s to ensure that we attracted clients who valued creative work, because we weren’t just going to give it away for nothing in a presentation we would discuss strategy, we’d talk about the future, but we wouldn’t present and put work up and in that way it was self-selecting.

Agencies don’t have standpoints to say ‘this is what we believe in’ and we can’t be all things to all people and the danger for us. I’m not having a go at them. But the danger for us is because we’ve got the large groups who are shareholder motivated and things like that. They want constant growth at a certain level, and it may not be right at that moment you might want to go ‘no, this year we’re not going to do that. We’re going to accept lower growth because it preserves the brand long term’.

So we’re in a situation where we’re not, as agencies, behaving like brands. We’re set of beliefs. This is what we do. We only work with those kinds of people, broad as it may be, they’re in all kinds of markets. But we’ve got to do that to really, I think, re-establish the kind of values that clients will then respect. And I think if you don’t have that, then you’re just a service company. You know you could go anywhere and do anything and you know you’re open to everyone! So I think agencies have got to initially think of themselves as brands. What do they believe in? What are they trying to do?

Pat Murphy:
Can I stay on the topic of finding the right talent to execute the roles or execute the jobs? Because bringing stories to life isn’t just a sole individual. It’s a team of people who bring this together, whether it’s directors or photographers or designers or whatever. And we are seeing and this is going to be let’s get on to a controversial subject, and we’ve heard it over the last couple of days – the big agency groups are trying to put their arms around all of the production process, leaving out this whole landscape of talent that’s out there, because the agencies want to just bring the revenue inside.

What’s your opinion about that? Who wants to have a first stab at that as an answer?

Doerte Spengler-Ahrens:
I adore this man because he has so fantastic work, and I once asked him. I said, ‘Kalle, how do you know a script is good’? And he says ‘when it moves me’? I said ‘when do you know this actor will do the best job’ he said ‘when he makes me laugh or cry’? And I think it’s as simple as that. If you’re looking for the best director or production company, you can only trust yourself. You have a gut feeling. That’s what I’m paid for for my gut feeling and we are paid for it or I’m famous, and then, if it, if this touches you or moves you in some way, it will be a good choice, at least to talk to that person or to this company and see what we can do together. Then it will be great.

Philipp Schuster:
I think, from my perspective, we as clients, we have to define a system which works best for all of us – first and foremost, best for our brands.

So, honestly, if the production comes from the holding company or from individual production companies or from AI. I think that depends, right, but I think, especially now we are in a phase where we transform our business, we eradicate hierarchies, we will work in much smaller teams who are empowered to take decisions. These teams need to have the right tools, the right capabilities at their fingertips and need to then be able to work with that as quickly as possible, because for us, as a big corporate, we are sometimes just too slow and too bureaucratic! So in that case, it’s really about defining the right system and then, yeah, almost for people to self-select what the best setup is for an individual project, for an individual campaign, for a certain asset, and that’s what we as clients organizations, have to do, but I think, yeah, everybody needs to play a role in that.

John Hegarty:
That comes out of ‘we want to make more money’ and we’ve got to remember money is a tool, not a philosophy, and the trouble is we end up with it being a philosophy about ‘I just want to make more money’ and I don’t think in the long term it serves the clients interest, because you are limiting the ability to work with the right people to achieve the right results. Because, you know, I always constantly say advertising is 80% idea, it’s also 80% execution. Now, my maths was never very good, but even I know that’s nonsense. It’s a hundred and you can’t have 160. But that’s where we are.

Again, it goes back to my point that we, you know, we’ve been driven by profit, not by philosophy, and that is a very short-term way of of viewing life was, eventually it’ll fall over, and burbank’s great line about you know, a principle isn’t a principle until it’s cost you money is so profound and so absolutely right and that this is an example of it.

One of the things I think has got to happen to our industry. I think creative people have got to take greater control. If you look back at the history of the industry, the changes that were made, the people, the people that were remembered were the creative people you know.
You go back to David Ogilvie, you go right back in advertising, you go back to Bill Bernbach and Dan Wyden and Mary Wells and people like that. They made the change because they thought philosophically about what it is that they were doing and they wanted to do something better. We’ve got to get back to that, to drive an industry that has a principle about it, and you can all have different points of view on that, which you should have but ultimately, that’s what will make a difference and that’s what brands need. Brands need difference. That’s why we have more than one brand.

Pat Murphy:
Upasana?

Upasana Roy:
I’m loving this discussion. I believe that the agencies are our creative partners at the end of the day. So they are kind of like creative guardians, but they’re not production guardians. I believe in democratisation of production, just because our generation has seen what a person with a phone and a camera can do. If you’ve walked around, you’ve seen the role creators play today, 15, 20 years back, a young creative person graduating either would go into an agency or into a production house or to a publishing house. Today they can sit at home with their own phones and deliver great content. Right? I just met with an amazing creator down at the Meta Beach who’s doing like short-form video content one of my favourites and she’s bringing an entire production studio out of her own living room and brands are dying to work with her. If you get the right creative talent, with the right production talent, that’s just magic right there, and I think if your agency is your creative guardian, they would support that move.

Pat Murphy:
Completely agree!

John. I watched one of your videos last night about selling great stories to clients. And sometimes the teams, the account teams are not that great at selling a great idea . So what is the process? What do you think is the best way to sell in a great idea, a great story? I’ll give you an example of when I was a head of production in an agency and I received this video from Vaughan and Anthea, who you obviously know, going back many years, and they decided to do their treatments on video and I just thought ‘that’s it. That’s brilliant. It doesn’t need an account person to sell it into me on video’. Do you want to kind of add anything to that?

John Hegarty:
There’s always a debate about who’s the best person to sell an idea. Is it the people who’ve created it, or is it maybe an account handler? Whatever that might be.

I mean, I think there have been two great agencies in the world. As far as I’m concerned, one of them is Dordain Burnback, because they invented modern advertising. And then there was Collie Dickinson Pierce and CDP were great because they took creativity to the nation. I mean, we are still talking about their work. You know, Heineken refreshes the parts for those of the UK. Heineken, their Fiat work. I mean they won more Grand Prix’s in Cannes when there was only one Grand Prix to win, as opposed to you get a Grand Prix for turning up. Now they’re all over the fucking Crozet, aren’t they? You trip up over the bloody things. Now. Get that fucking Grand Prix out of my way.

Now they always got the account people to sell the ads because a lot of their creative people would have hit the client if they disagreed with them! So they don’t put them in the meeting. But I think it depends what you want to do and you know I’ve watched really, really outstanding creative people undersell their idea. But they don’t understand how to sell something. They don’t understand that. What you’ve got to do is use the client’s language. You’ve got to make them realise you’ve understood their problem and actually you have a solution to it. And actually as soon as you utter the word ‘cool’, it’s all over, it’s all over, go out now the idea is lost. So there is no hard and fast way of doing it.

And I remember we won British Airways and they insisted that they have a creative director who was going to report to them. And I remember I said, ‘well, ok’, and I got this creative director to be responsible for BA and about within a month, I got a phone call from the client saying y’ou’ve got to take that, you’ve got to take that man off our account’. And I said why ‘he keeps disagreeing with us’? ‘And of course he does, that’s what he likes to do’. And they didn’t realize. You know, they got what they asked for and didn’t then didn’t like it. You know, oh my god. There are no rules and it is what’s best.

I mean, you, Philipp, you’ve bought ideas. How have you liked it being done to you?

Philipp Schuster:
Yeah, you want actually a creative director to disagree with you. I mean, like, if every, if everybody is just high-fiving each other and celebrating how great they are together, then that doesn’t create outstanding work, right. We try to build an environment where we, with our partners, have a relationship where we can have healthy tension. We want to create some tension points. If everything is just easy-peasy, lemon-squeezy, then there’s a problem, right? But it has to be in an environment where this is possible. Of course you don’t want to beat each other up, but you have to have this constructive criticism and people can be frank to each other. And I think this is the relationship, the culture of a partnership we want to build together with our agencies, because we feel that this produces the best work.

Pat Murphy:
Doerte?

Doerte Spengler-Ahrens:
I have another experience. Yesterday I met one of my biggest clients and he said ‘I would love to talk to you again. Blah, blah, blah, and don’t bring that guy’. I said,’ do you mean, do you mean my partner’? I mean, this is the most famous account person. ‘No, if I want to have a great glass of wine, I go with my wife. And I want to have a discussion. I want to be challenged, I want to feel you’ and I’ve made the experience. I’m not 25 anymore, so I’ve made the experience. The more authentic you are, the more true to your client, as you say. To be honest, you can do that, but if you really do it, you will not have any impact. It will move your product forward. Nothing will happen. And if you listen to me, why don’t you dare to do this? And sometimes this works and sometimes they’re like ‘please get her out of the room’. Like, you’re a creative director, this woman always says no. So like if you’re a creative director, this woman always says no. But if you find a balance between you and yes in the right moment, and I love that, no, don’t bring that guy. If I want to have a glass of wine, if I go with my wife.

Pat Murphy:
I was in the pre-production meeting with Fallon on the making of the Gorilla campaign for Cadbury’s. Cadbury’s is our client and there was just. You could just tell that both the client and the agency were slightly shitting themselves! It’s either going to be really crap or really brilliant. Would you say that that’s quite typical of making great work? Is there an element of kind of being scared?

John Hegarty:
Yeah, I mean, I always thought when I was presented or I was doing ideas and I’d show it to somebody else and if they say, ‘oh, that’s really good, John, I can see how that’s going to be’, you go, ‘oh God, no, it’s terrible, it’s. I must go back and think again’. I mean, there is always you just never know. I mean, one of the things I loved working with film, in whatever is you know, with print, which I adore doing. But you could make it work. You know, you could, you could lay it out. I know that’s not working, change that, do that. But with film, when you’re turning now of course it’s digital, but you’re turning a piece of paper into celluloid, as we used to say there’s this leap and you just don’t know. And all the experiences you’ve got and all the things you do and you, I think this is right, I think that’s right. And along the way, there can be 20 or 30 things that stop it happening, that stop it being great.

I remember we were making a commercial with Jonathan… Glazer! It’s the heat, my brain stopped working then! He’s just won an Oscar. And we made a brilliant idea for Club Med and the idea in it was the essence of Club Med was set up to go – The founder said ‘you take a holiday because it helps you for the rest of the year’. So we thought we would show somebody who’s had a Club Med holiday and how they feel great. So the script is a guy in New York, he’s come back from his Club Med holiday and he’s trying to engage with people. He’s trying to engage.

Doerte Spengler-Ahrens:
I love that one!

John Hegarty:
Oh, thank you! And he’s trying to engage with people so good. And of course they all think he’s mad. They all think he’s gone mad. You know who’s this person. Get him out of our… And I said to Glazer ‘you’ve got to like him, because if you don’t like him you think, yeah, he’s a fucking nutter, get him out of my life’. And we had enormous row and he wanted to cast somebody who looked like Tim Roth, who looked as though he’d kill you. And eventually, of course, we did get what we want.

But there’s an example of great script, great idea that casting, had it been been wrong, would have killed it and you can go online to see it. Club med, New York City, I think it’s called, or something, and you can see it and the and it. There’s a lovely ending to it again, which we had a huge row about. So you know, even though he’s got an Oscar!!!

Doerte Spengler-Ahrens:
I remember the last sentence. “Is it not you that it’s gone, that it’s mad, but the world is, or something like that is mad, or is the world is mad.”

John Hegarty:
Is he mad, or are we?

Doerte Spengler-Ahrens:
Yeah, it’s one of the most fantastic works and I always showed it to my students in the Miami Art School. Everybody has to see this!

Pat Murphy:
Don’t ask Jonathan Glazer about his Cadbury’s flake ad. It never went to air.

Upasana have you ever been in any meetings where that kind of like tension was in the air with some great work?

Upasana Roy:
Yeah, I mean, a little bit of tension is always good, right, otherwise everything is flat. Nobody likes flat! So I think one of the things that I really like about presenting ideas in an in an interesting way is when you could almost sense that there is a little bit of tension in the room and people are like hoping that it’s going to go well, and if the first immediate reaction is, ‘yeah, it’s good’, probably it’s not good. So it’s a little bit like that.

But on the flip side, I also feel like we try too hard to predict what people are going to like. So we’ve got all of these data points, we have all of these pre-testing tools, we’ve got everything that we try to do as marketeers to predict the success of that work, because we kind of fear that it’s going to fail, and one of the best things that probably we can do is give ourselves the permission to fail once in a while, because otherwise we will not be able to demonstrate that bravery – and a gorilla’s Cadbury would never have been made, I guess!

Pat Murphy:
Completely agree with you. Philip?

Philipp Schuster:
Yeah, one point from us. What we try to do is become comfortable feeling uncomfortable, right, Like, I think, especially in a creative context. You know, and I think Patricia said to us, like, try to be uncomfortable once a day at least. If you have that feel of uncomfortableness, you know you might be onto something. Right, get you out of your comfort zone, challenge you with different things. And like back to the Creative Unleash process. We said a lot in these sessions with our agencies and we were like, ‘oh, you know, wow, that felt a bit weird now’, but you know what these were, maybe sometimes the best ideas, right? So I think there is no pain, no gain, in a way, right, literally.

Pat Murphy:
Completely agree, Completely agree.

Now I have a subject which, well, it wouldn’t be Cannes this week if I didn’t bring it up, which is AI. That’s about the only thing on everybody’s lips this week and, John, as you know, we did our podcast recently and you said ‘well, you’ve got to remember that those AI tools are going out there and they pick up all the shit as well as the good stuff’.

But is there a way that AI can leverage the power of storytelling and advertising in a good way?

John Hegarty:
I think AI is going to be remarkable. I think it is going to be a fantastic tool. Of course, you know, I’ve been around so long. I’ve lived through lots of these, who remembers TiVo? Remember TiVo? Yeah, that was going to change the industry, wasn’t it? What happened there?

And then, of course, dot com, that was going to change everything. Ok, fine!

But I think it is an incredible tool. But we’ve got to understand what it is. It’s called artificial, fine! Yeah, we know that. Intelligence? Now intelligence basically is scooping up what’s there. It’s not imagination. It can’t imagine, and creativity comes from the bridging of those two things. So, if you have imagination over here and intelligence here, creativity is about bridging those two things. So, remember what it can do and remember what it can’t do. It can’t imagine, and it’s in imagination that the future lies.

Upasana Roy:
Now there are two schools right. You’ve got the doom school and you’ve got the hype school right. I’m the hype school! And I really feel like AI is going to be an absolute competitive edge, an absolute game changer for creativity, because when everything is the same, creativity is going to be the differentiator and that’s how you actually stand out. We believe within Reckitt that it has to be the human in the loop. So it’s AI with the human in the loop and that’s going to bring that differentiation and that positive impact of how we end up utilising technology to our advantage, because creativity is always going to be the differentiator.

Pat Murphy:
Such an insightful session. I want to say a huge thank you to all of the panellists who joined me in Cannes this year to discuss the power of creativity and storytelling: Doerte Spengler-Ahrens from Jung von Matt in Hamburg, Philipp Schuster from Bayer Consumer Health, Upasana Roy from Reckitt and, of course, advertising legend Sir John Hegarty.

If you’re interested in taking John’s course called The Business of Creativity then head to businessofcreativity.com and discover how creativity can take your business to the next level.

Next time on The Prodcast you’ll be able to hear another of the fascinating sessions from our Beach in Cannes, this time on sustainability and how brands, agencies and partners can drive consumer engagement and help towards a more eco-conscious world.

To find out more about the MCA Prodcast, please head to theprodcast.com, where you’ll find details on all my guests, full transcriptions of all the episodes and if you have any comments, questions or feedback, please email us at podcast@murphycobb.com.

I’m Pat Murphy, CEO of MCA. Do come and connect with us on LinkedIn or Instagram, of which all the links in the notes for this episode will be there. We’d love to hear from you.

Thanks again to my panellists, my team at MCA and to my production team at What Goes On Media. Thanks for listening. See you next time.