Pat Murphy
Hi and welcome to the MCA Prodcast, your fix for everything innovative in advertising and production. I’m Pat Murphy and I’ve been working in this industry for more than 35 years now. I’ve seen a lot of changes, but know there’s plenty more around the corner. Each week on the podcast, you’ll get to hear from one of the movers and shakers who are shaping the world of advertising for the future, and we’ll dive into some of the key challenges facing our sector today and how we’re best placed to overcome them.

Today we’re talking to Carl Addy, an Executive Creative Director at Mayda, known for his innovative work across various media, including live action and animation. Carl has collaborated with top brands like EA Sports, Riot Games, Google, Facebook, Spotify, Nike and a whole lot more. He frequently speaks at notable events like SxSW and Cannes. His creative ventures extend into the high art and music industries, having worked with Damien Hirst on concert visuals for U2’s Glastonbury performance.

Carl, thank you so much for being here on our podcast.

Carl Addy
Thank you, Pat. It’s an honour to be here.

Pat Murphy
It was great to see you in Cannes last week. Have you recovered?

Carl Addy
Sort of, yes, it all feels like a flashback, but yeah, I’m happy to be back in the land of the sane!

Pat Murphy
Brilliant.

Now you’re one of the founders of Mayda, one of the coolest and new style production companies on the planet, if I can call you that, and named as one of the most successful top four in the US last year. That’s been an amazing and meteoric rise for you. What would you say has been your secret sauce?

Carl Addy
Oh, wow. I think an intention at the very beginning from the founding members to purposely not place a flag in the ground and say we’re about one singular thing. Rather, we’re about our process, our curiosity, our appetite for trying new things, which has become recognized with our clients that we’re great collaborators at a very early stage and are interested in pushing things forward.

Pat Murphy
And the name ‘Mayda’. Let’s start there. Where did that come from?

Carl Addy
That’s actually. It sums up a way of working for us, in an attitude, and it’s kind of become one of those things that draws talent towards us and also defines how we do things. But Mayda was in the early times of mapping the world and conquering new lands Mayda was a set of islands that would frequently appear and then disappear and tame drove desire was seeking adventure and was never really discovered. So in choosing that name, it’s really a parallel for you know kind of understanding a little bit about the founders and how we got to that. It’s an acceptance from the very beginning, with all of your aspirations and hopes. It’s also an acceptance of it’s a bumpy ride, it has unknown outcomes and actually it’s the treasures that you find along the way and the adventures that bond people together. That is the value of the process. So, um, yeah, it’s become a really interesting thing for us.

Pat Murphy
I know I called you a production company, but some people kind of get you confused between are you a production house? Are you a design company? Are you a studio? You could call yourselves a creative collective of people from gaming, tech, mixed media. What actually are you as a business?

Carl Addy
Depends on who our client is, and I think that’s… I don’t blame people for being confused. We’ve been wilfully obscure, which I know is counterintuitive in a market where you should be known for one thing. But we do believe in the work and we believe in the process. I think the way to think about us is, given our history, where we all come from the pedigree of talent. We are creative collaborators who understand how to take something from zero script to final pixel. At any point along those lines we understand the full verticals all the way to the bottom, and we can hold on to that and be guardians of people’s ideas and their jobs. So you could come to us as a traditional production company, whether that’s live action with animation, with visual effects, we’re pretty good at mixing it all up. That’s, in fact, something to be very interested in. Or you could come to us to solve a technical problem which has led to some very interesting outcomes for us as well

Pat Murphy
Is that where the words ‘design thinking’ comes from?

Carl Addy
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It comes from a sense that true design is understanding a hierarchy of communication and problem solving and putting that above everything else, above style, above trend, all of those things, and having a real appreciation for the problem-solving process that gives an outcome that is refined through problem solving.

Pat Murphy
And where do you start? How do the logistics of a project work for you? I mean, where do you start?

Carl Addy
It depends. I mean me personally. I almost have two ways in with Mayda. One is people might have seen something I’ve done before, so that’s a very traditional production company way of doing something and people just assume I’m just the director and that’s fine, that’s wonderful and it’s a very gratifying job.

The other way is that through people seeing the broad range of work that we do, they understand that we can take complexity and find the human thread through it, and so then they will come to us because they recognize that we’re problem solvers and they have something they don’t know who knows how to do it, and they might talk to us about. You know, it’s very casual at first. Often it’s just ‘do you mind if we pick your brains’? And we and we love that.

Pat Murphy
Amazing.

And where exactly are you now on the map? Are you based in London or in New York? Where are you actually?

Carl Addy
I’m in London. We’re in New York and LA as well, and then we also rent and collaborate with people who are global.

Pat Murphy
You are an alumni of The Mill, obviously, and that is the most amazing place to have cut your teeth on this kind of stuff, but I know nothing about you before that. Let’s rewind and find out a little bit about the early career of Carl Addy. Tell me about it.

Carl Addy
You’ll see at some point in the story it’s going to sound like a really bad career trajectory and then suddenly it makes sense.

I started out in design and advertising in a kind of trend and fashion business in my hometown, Durban, but got frustrated because I wanted to work on some bigger thinking things. Had a bursary to go and study advertising through Red and Yellow, which is an Ogilvy and Mather school, which then got me into Ogilvy and Mather in Janus where I met some authors and started a early content business. This was pre-first bust of kind of digital space and that got me into directing illustrated commercials, which got me into directing live action commercials working through American companies, which got me into directing illustrated commercials. Which got me into direct to live action commercials working through American companies into london and and that’s where you know. So up until that point I suppose you’d imagine ‘what’s this guy up to. This is a very non-linear way to get anywhere in life’, but I had accumulated a whole lot of different school skills which when you walk into a place like The Mill which is, you know, think about at that time huge it’s, it’s truly global, it is big and it’s attracting the type of jobs that only a place of scale and of deep, deep technical knowledge can tackle.

Now, I wasn’t a on-the-box flame or animator or anything like that, but I was someone who had spent a lot of my life navigating those rooms and those spaces and knew how to speak and communicate but also had a really high regard for concept, storytelling and human connection.

So I was brought in to help refine and set up the designer vision, which then became Mill Plus, the global production/director part and then their emerging tech stuff. I did some of the early work with that, which helped define an appetite for that market. And so again, within this very rare space – you know, if you think about that as a training ground, somewhere to hone your teeth on some pretty big things, The Mill’s in the ages that I was there, The Mills saw some incredibly innovative and complex problems that would come in in the same way we work these days. It will come in with a desire, a very loose brief, and then through consultation, discovery, we find the right way to do it and figure it out. So that was a unique place to kind of have an accelerated growth, absolutely.

Pat Murphy
Absolutely. And what was the desire for you then to leave and to set up this new company? What made you do that?

Carl Addy
My directorial work had gotten a lot more traction and I gotta tell you there are very few things as enjoyable as seeing vision come to life and having the orchestration on a large mixed media production, from working with musicians, from fashion and styling to on sets, getting talents to animation, to both. All of those things are little spaces to have a lot of joy. So if you’re going to spend your time on something that’s like a very complex interactive puzzle that you’re going to spend three months on and then start a new one.

So I was read by them as purely a director for a while, so I went all-star. And then I kind of got to the point where I was getting a lot of a certain type of work that it was very exciting that I need to try and build a studio around that so to facilitate the rapid repeat of certain styles. And at that point I had reconnected again with some people that I’d worked with in the past who had similar thoughts.

Pat Murphy
So I’ve got a question for you about treatments, because we get exposed to a lot of treatments from directors and we know that there’s lots of treatment writers out there and everything looks exactly the same. And I wanted to ask you about… do you do your own treatments? Because I get frustrated, because they look all the same. Now you can almost read the stuff and it’s written by the same people. There’s got to be a better way. I’d much rather see something that’s written on the back of a, a napkin from a restaurant, if it was written by the actual director themselves. What’s your view?

Carl Addy
I agree. I think it’s hard for the directors because I think if you’re not an A-list, well-known director, you don’t have the gravitational pull of whichever film you just directed or whatever great music video you just did, so that gets you the desire of whoever is reading your treatment.

So that’s yours to then lose, that’s basically don’t do a bad job. But largely the world is so cluttered with brilliant, brilliant things and trying to figure out who actually did the thing on the thing that really matters is incredibly hard. So I think writing good treatments is very important, that a director does the majority of.

Now there’s a lot of really like myself… I write pretty scattered, like I’m talking now, pretty scattered treatments, but it’s me! It will come across like lyrical. It will come across, my insights will be very personal, but my hope there is that people have a window into how I think and feel like there will be very personal, but my hope there is that people have a window into how I think and feel like there will be a connection and a trust into that. It’s. you know, ‘if you like how I dance, we’re going to dance well together’. That’s the hope you can do with a treatment, because the rest is in great teamwork.

Trying to do a treatment that’s different to what everybody else is doing up there is also incredibly hard because everyone is using the same references. Everybody has lusted after the same type of work that just picked up a gold last week in Cannes, and it requires brave creatives, brave brands, brave producers.

Pat Murphy
Is there anything that you wouldn’t take on? When would you actually say ‘no’?

Carl Addy
I’m really revealing a lot here that probably should be revealed, but there’s not a lot I would say no to. But I do have criterias. So obviously there’s a fiscal responsibility to trying to grow a business, but at the same time you have to weigh – will there be a negative backlash? Will it do the other things that a business like ours needs to do? So we’re small yet very ambitious and we need to time travel. We can’t do 10 years just so people give us good briefs. We have to do famous work now to get to better briefs. So there’s that motivation and thinking structure that goes into it.

The other thing is I call it film school. I’ll take on a job sometimes that I know won’t turn out sexy. I know I’ll do a good job on it. I know the client will be really happy with it. I know everybody will be very gratified by the process. But I will sometimes take on a job because it’s well funded enough for me to learn something new, that I will be able to try new tools, forge new relationships, push into a new category, these kinds of things. And this is a very daunting fact about directing and about film or sets or big digital projects is that the price of admission to any sets or to any room with great artists is a fortune and you’re using somebody’s money to do that.  No one can self-fund their way into doing something really huge. Obviously, billions of people can make things out of nothing and there’s a lot of great, great artists. But, as we all know, there’s a certain calibre of work that when you’re working with the big tools, when you’re working on things that are huge gambles and big risks, require the scaffolding of legal, of great sets, of good cameras, of good technicians, and that’s what I call film school. So if I get to learn something new, I’ll gladly take it.

Pat Murphy
We in our business, we tend to say only no to potential clients we don’t like! If you don’t feel right, from a kind of chemistry point of view, that’s when we normally say no, and likewise the other way around when we love our clients. It’s amazing what you do with the small amount of money that you’ve got, because you just want to help them out! We’re in the business of relationships, no matter what anybody says. You can procure this thing as much as you like, but at the end of the day, it’s about relationships and I love the philosophies… I’ve been looking at some of your videos and I love the philosophies that you’ve got. There was one which said ‘start school, never leave’. I love that. Seriously, did you steal that from somebody? Did you make it up yourself?

Carl Addy
Wow, I think we all steal, don’t we? I didn’t knowingly steal, I think I’ve made it up myself. But you can’t not be influenced by every great mind around you.

Pat Murphy
That’s brilliant.

Tell me about the most memorable projects you’ve worked on in recent years. I’ve been looking at some of your really great stuff and in particular that one that you’ve done recently for the NFL. Tell us a little bit about that. I think that’s so cool.

Carl Addy
Well, that’s really a team effort that I think translation had come to us with a brief around ‘is it possible to build a NFL helmet or galiadet, the hard of hearing in-depth university, for their players to have some kind of a visual device in it that could give them plays and get information from the coach, because obviously they have acute disadvantages with not being able to have audio cues. Um, and it was very much a hypothesis – could this be done? Could we make a case study film that that posits that AT&T use 5g and immersion technology to do that, and quite quickly we figured out you could make a real product. And so you know, cut to, two years later it’s out there in the world.

It’s a working piece of hardware, it can go to market, it’s been tested and I think, seeing the rapid iteration, and building something real like that is so gratifying,

Pat Murphy
Amazing and it’s just not an ad at all.

This is something that’s real. It’s a product that really exists and I thought that was, and it’s just not an ad at all. This is something that’s really. It’s a product that really exists and I love that, and it says a lot about you as a company as well. You’re very happy to go off into different directions if you think it’s a really great project to work on.

Carl Addy
Where the treasure is at!

Pat Murphy
Yeah, and then the other one that I’d also like the look of was the stuff that you were working with Lush – The Lush Spire Experiment. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about that?

Carl Addy
A really good example also of how we like to constantly adapt new technologies and embrace new technologies as if they were painting brushes, as if they were pens, because they really are the form of expression they aren’t in and unto themselves.

Lush had come to The Mill with a simple brief: Could we create a film that really demonstrated the immersive types of spa treatments they were doing, because they would kind of orchestrate music to kind of affect your heartbeat as it went along? There was a huge sensoral choreography to what they were doing and rather than create an animated or a heavy visual effects film for them, we decided to read the bio data – the heartbeat, the saline nature of sweat, things like that all of the body temperatures, brain waves, to use that to see where the peaks were, what were the connected narratives happening with that data while they’re undergoing a spa treatment, and then drive that data through animation.

So you’re watching an immersive film made by a body in treatment, a very kind of congruent, symmetrical concepts.

Pat Murphy
That’s amazing!

And talking about audio. That is a very big passion of yours as well. How do you integrate or do you think about audio very much when you’re kind of going into a project?

Carl Addy
Yeah, I do. Sometimes I’ll use music to set a tone, to set a cinematic feeling for myself as I write. So it’s a good way to kind of set a mood. And then obviously there’s the technicalities of how to use it potently as a story driver while you’re making the work.

Pat Murphy
Now we were both on the LBB panel about the power of music in advertising and I’ve discovered that you used to be in a band called Heavy Menthol. What is that? Tell me about it.

Carl Addy
I used to be in a lot of bands, but this is one of the more recent ones. Actually, and honestly, it was set up as a reason to spend time with one of my closest friends, Mac Bess, illustrator. He’s a very busy entrepreneur and one of his partners, Matthew Christensen, who was a drummer in a previous band of mine, who now runs a web free part of their business. But it really was… as I was becoming a lot more adult and responsible with my life, I needed something to be a little irresponsible and maybe a bit daft. Heavy Menthol is exactly what you would imagine when middle-aged men get together and write metal songs and make a lot of noise. We have songs like The Receding Hairline of Beelzebub or a song like Drinks with HR, which is just great fun. It’s very noisy, it’s very cathartic.

Pat Murphy
And you go out on the road with your band?

Carl Addy
Well, that project not so much. Earlier on, I toured quite a lot. I’ve played in bands since I was a kid. Honestly, since I was like 14, I played a lot when I was younger. One of the reasons I came to the UK was to be tour with our band and record out here.

Pat Murphy
Brilliant stuff. You’re a man of many talents, aren’t you, though Carl?

Carl Addy
Many distractions!

Pat Murphy
Has your South African heritage influenced your music and your creative vision? How much of an influence has that had?

Carl Addy
Yeah, I would say absolutely. Maybe not so much in the sound of the music, probably more in the approach to music, definitely in the approach to life and work! Growing up in South Africa you you’re not that tapped into the big stages of the world. It always felt a bit like a small island growing up there and so you kind of have to grow up humble. If you have any big ideas about yourself, you very quickly are put in your place because the world is. You know well that environment is filled with talent. There is so much talent. Talent is cheap, hustle is hard and yeah, so you carry that into your work, going ahead. You don’t see quite the same boundaries, I think everybody else does. You don’t always stay in your lane but you kind of go forward quite ambitiously.

Pat Murphy
As I was looking through all of that amazing work that you’ve done over the years, it struck me I did an interview with David Putnam once about the importance of pre-production, but looking at your work, it all looks a bit crazy and raw and almost kind of ad-libbed. But I’m guessing, though, it’s still impeccably prepped in advance. Would I be right in saying that?

Carl Addy
Yeah, yeah, it really is, and it’s actually really great to hear it described that way, because I think I’m always constantly trying to stay, no matter how professional I get in my abilities and in my you know my accuracy of achieving ideas, you always want to have enough raw, visceral, looseness to it, that that gives space for excitement, interest, spontaneity, all of those things that make something magical. So it’s great to hear that.

Pat Murphy
And where does the inspiration come from? Do you need to kind of get yourself into a particular frame of mind? Imagine there’s a blank sheet of paper. What do you do to get started? Do you go for a walk? What is it that gets you going?

Carl Addy
Luckily, I work to great briefs a lot of the time, or great problems. The thing that tends to get me going is deadlines and fear as a driver for innovation. So largely the thing that will get me going is having a high expectation, like I want to overperform or I want to overachieve or all of those things stacks enough pressure to drive you to make leaps. And what gets me going is, I think, in visiting the mood of that, the shape of what this thing could possibly be, rather than what’s been asked for really imagining myself as a viewer at the end, not for that exact thing, but ‘what would I love to see’. Bearing in mind, I’m the viewer that is the most cynical. I see everything out there. We all do. It’s so rich, there’s so much great work out there. So then you kind of put yourself in place. Well, let me take the communication that needs to happen here, and then I want to see it in a way that I haven’t seen before.

Pat Murphy
I was looking at one of your videos and I saw you’d made some amazing real life space age motorbikes, but they were in the ad for about a second. How do you choose what to make for real and what to do in CGI or in AI? I mean, that was a bit bonkers really, when you think about it. You had to make those for real and it was just there like blip of an eye… gone.

Carl Addy
Yeah. When you frame it like that, it’s crazy. It’s not the smartest way to work, is it? But I do think there’s an emotional outcome to that type of work. I also do embrace AI as we move forward, because I think making a lot of those decisions will be a lot less costly, for the right reasons, because there’s ethical approaches to this. Choosing what to make for real very often is around, and this is going to sound quite woolly, but I really do believe that in order to make a big WOW, you have to load it with a lot of little WOOHs, which means craft and detail. That means putting passion into every little thing. I know it doesn’t, we don’t think so, but people notice single frames. It will impact you in some way and if there’s enough good single frames, you’re going to hold their attention for a full film.

Pat Murphy
I love that phrase. Lots of little woos to make a wow, that’s great. I’m going to capture that.

What are the key innovations that you think or you anticipate will transform creative production landscape over the next decade? What challenges and opportunities do you foresee?

Carl Addy
Yeah, I don’t have to bring up AI too much, because it’s a thing that is already shaping so much of this is going ahead. But I think once we get past the broad terms of AI and the broad fears and look at it as modular capabilities, as stackable, connected, problem solving things and you know a bit more like how developers have always worked with machine learning, it’s built into a pipeline and a process in a way that is not out of control and very much is at the whim, intuition and curatorial control of the creator or the thinker or the operator. So I’m excited about a future where that stuff is fluid, the making paradigm, being able to author and get things out into the world is faster, the mistakes are less costly, even just as a by-product, a cultural by-product of the current phase of AI that we’re in – you know, prompt engineering, things like that, even everybody’s foray into mid-journey I’ve already seen. One of the outcomes of that is specificity. I’m suddenly hearing language in meetings that I would normally hear in a technical space, like a visual effects room.

People being able to describe an output, because they’re being forced to not just come at it with fluffy terms. They want control! They need to know what type of lighting, what type of lens, what is the exact thing we want out of it and that’s teaching people specificity which is effective, whereas in the past, how often have we been in a room when someone says ‘can you make it warmer’? There’s so many different interpretations of that and that’s costly. When, when you know you’re trying to figure out what does ‘warmer’ mean to, is that person?

Pat Murphy
Yeah!

Now your wife is also in the industry. When you go home, do you talk shop or do you have a rule to switch off um?

Carl Addy
I think luckily we both love what we do so much that doesn’t feel like shop. So that answers the second question. There’s no real rule. We can’t really shut off those parts of ourselves, I think, to our detriment sometimes. But I think the things we do in the same way that I think would be a disservice to the type of work that we do to just think of it as a job, and they’re passions and it’s okay for that to mention them.

Pat Murphy
Look, by the way, carl, I agree with you. I don’t tell anybody, but I actually haven’t done a proper day’s work in my whole life. You know what someone’s going to find us out. You know that at some point yeah, we’ll get sussed.

Look, you’ll be an inspiration for so many talented newbies coming into our industry from art or film school. What’s your guidance or advice to to somebody who wants to get into the business?

Carl Addy
I have a term: minimum viable making. There’s a pressure on all of us to want everything to be perfect, to not stop, to not start until we’ve figured out how to make it perfect. It’s the phrase also ‘a sharp mind and a blunt tool’. A great artist will take a blunt piece of charcoal and imprint his identity onto something. That principle works in technology, it works with cameras, it works with everything. Start as soon as possible figuring out what your imprint is, because that’ll be the tool that carries you once you do get access to bigger things, bigger equipment, bigger budgets. That’s the one thing that’ll be your safety net and will draw people to you and will define your point of view.

Pat Murphy
Great advice and let’s talk about something different Outside of work. What has meaning in your life outside of work? I mean, do you have any projects? What’s passion for you outside of the stuff you’re doing every day?

Carl Addy
Music, of course is. I’m fortunate enough to get onto the circuit and do a lot of the talks and keynotes and some of the design conferences and things like that. I like that, not from an exposure/media point of view, which is great. It’s an honour to be invited to this. I like this because they force you to find your provocation and what will you share? What will you be of service? How can you be of service?

And ideally, I would love to find the capacity and time to have an open-door policy to anybody to ask me anything. Is there any way that I can shortcut them to something or unlock something they’re stuck in? Because those are the greatest moments of my life is having access to people who will say the right thing at the right time. That helps me unpick, get out of my own way, whatever it is, figure out the way into the next or have the confidence to step into the next room.

Pat Murphy
I have in the last year, found one of the most rewarding things has been mentoring and clearly you obviously a very generous person when you give your time for others. Do you do that in a formal way or not?

Carl Addy
Not in a formal way? Well, I’ve done stuff on behalf of Miami Ad School in the past. In these conferences. Occasionally you’ll do workshops. It’s not regular and it’s not ongoing, so I wouldn’t call it formal. What we do Mayda at the moment – a lot of mentoring happens in turning amongst ourselves, because we’re trying to be effective around the world with small amount of people on a broad range of work. So that means developing culture and thinking systems rather than being just outcome-orientated. But I would love to find a more public way. I’d love to find the time and the space, but yeah, I would love to find a more formal way to do it. I don’t know if that’s teaching later on or whatever, but yeah.

Pat Murphy
Look. Finally, carl, the question we have to ask all of our guests, since it’s become the highlight of our podcast: what’s your favourite ad of all time?

Carl Addy
This is really tough, and so I’ve purposely almost gotten out of the canon of all the modern, brilliant ads over the last 30 years. You know what would be considered great, because there is so much great and we’re flooded these days!

A thing that’s moved me I saw it so long ago and I keep returning to it is that in Depression-era America there was a trend… I wouldn’t call it a trend because that sounds so modern and cool but there was a behavioural pattern emerging in rural towns where mothers would take flower sacks which were cotton sacks, you know, flower sacks and seed sacks and sew them into garments and clothing for themselves and their children. They would take great pride in it and, as that developed as a habit, they would, you know, fashion certain buttons onto them to try and remove the stigma of what it is to be poor and recycle like that, the stigma of what it is to be poor and recycle like that. And generously the manufacturers noticed this and started printing patterns onto their sacks. And not only that, they would print patterns and easily removable stitching so that it didn’t damage the cloth and their logos and I mean, get this in the modern era. Their logos were put on with washable ink. So the moment it went through one wash and was boiled, logos have disappeared. So you’re left with a great pattern which brings so much dignity and innovation and it went on to be such a huge point of pride in local communities that there’d be upcycled, sold as original garments. I love that. I love that so much. I think even today it resonates so well.

Pat Murphy
That’s fantastic. We’re going to have to find some references for that and we’ll post it up onto the MCA Prodcast website as well for you. So that’s absolutely brilliant.

Carl, it’s been such a pleasure chatting to you on the MCA Prodcast. Massive congratulations for all your success and I’ll see you in london. I’m looking forward to catching up with you, uh, next time I’m there. As you know, I live in lisbon. Yes, um, and of course you did, and of course you did the the world cup trailer for the Portugal team here in Portugal as well.

Carl Addy
I love Portugal as well! I look forward to seeing you!

Pat Murphy
That’s amazing, so maybe you should come here. What do you think? We can? Sit on the beach.

Carl Addy
I am so tempted. I love that idea. So tempted, I love that idea!

Pat Murphy
Today we talked to Carl Addy, an Executive Creative Director at Mayda, known for his innovative work across various media, including live action and animation.

To find out more about the MCA Prodcast, please head to theprodcast.com, where you’ll find details on all my guests, links to their favourite ads and full transcriptions of all the episodes. If you’d like to feature on the podcast or have any comments, questions or feedback, please email us at podcast@murphycobb.com.
I’m Pat Murphy, CEO of MCA. Do come and connect with us on LinkedIn or Instagram, of which all the links in the notes for this episode will be there. We’d love to hear from you.

If you loved this podcast, please give us a review on the podcast platform you’ve been listening.

Thanks again to Carl, my team at MCA and to my production team at what goes on media. Thanks for listening. See you next time.