Pat Murphy
Hi and welcome to The MCA Prodcast – your fix for everything innovative at advertising production. I’m Pat Murphy and I’ve been working in this industry for more than 35 years now. I’ve seen a lot of changes, but know there’s plenty more around the corner.

Each week on the podcast, you’ll get to hear from one of the movers and shakers who are shaping the world of advertising for the future, and will dive into some of the key challenges facing our sector today and how we’re best placed to overcome them.

Today we’re talking to John Osborn, director for Ad Net Zero in the United States, with vast experience in the advertising world, he served as president and CEO of BBDO New York for over 20 years and was CEO of OMDUS for five years. He’s now leveraging the power of marketing and advertising in service of a better world, as he brilliantly mentions in his LinkedIn profile. And we at MCA have first hand experience with this, since we’ve recently partnered with you, John, at Ad Net Zero, to bring more sustainable practice to the advertising world.

John, thanks so much for being here today.

John Osborn
Pat. It’s great to be here with you!

Pat Murphy
Now last time we spoke, we were on a Zoom call and you said ‘hang on a second, have you seen what’s going on in Hawaii, in Lahaina’? And obviously we know what the outcome of that was. When are people going to wake up to what’s happening in the world?

John Osborn
You know what, hopefully soon, because there is no time like the present and time is the scarcest resource of all. You and I have talked about this, Pat, but my journey in getting my way towards Ad Net Zero really is one that was fueled by some service work I was doing with the American Red Cross. And if you look at the data because it’s all about the data in today’s world you will see that there has been a sincere and serious uptick in the frequency and in the severity of wicked weather events all around the world, which is problematic for a lot of different reasons. Obviously, the economic impact, the human impact, it also – wild weather really disproportionately affects folks that are more disadvantaged than other segments of the population. So there’s all sorts of ripple effects of more severe weather.

I also saw a stat the other day that there is some significantly greater impact of a concentration of water that comes out in a period of time versus what it was 50 years ago. So what we’re getting are torrential downpours over a period of time that are causing flash flooding, in addition to the wildfires, in addition to the hurricanes. You know we’ve got several hurricanes right now, as we’re speaking, in the Atlantic and for the first time in recent history, perhaps ever, there was a hurricane warning in California a couple of weeks ago when a tropical system came up from off the western coast of Mexico and came on up towards California. So it is never a dull moment, but this is one of the many reasons why we need to get our hands around this crisis.

Pat Murphy
Do you think it’s going to change when it actually affects people, themselves on a daily basis? It seems to me that it’s about short-term benefit for many people instead of long-term gain.

John Osborn
Yeah, I think when it affects someone personally, it really hits home. Climate action is one of those things that, metaphorically speaking, it’s a little bit over the horizon line and it’s so easy because it’s not a clear and present danger to many people – until it affects them personally. But the more we can make this sort of come to life and the more unfortunately it affects more people. This is going to be the moment at which a lot more people en-masse are going to wake up to the fact that we’re really on a ticking time clock here and we’ve got to take action.

Pat Murphy
Now you’ve had an impressive background in advertising, including serving as the CEO of BBDO in New York. You currently hold the title of director of Ad Net Zero. Starting on that basis, can you talk a little bit about what Ad Net Zero is?

John Osborn
Well, thanks for that. I really feel like I found a home here with Ad Net Zero and I’ve always thought of myself as someone that really enjoys serving. Someday there’ll be some sort of a statement over, some sort of a bio of me that says #BuiltToServe. But I really kind of found my calling, and there is nothing quite like a big, hairy, audacious problem that gets me up out of bed in the morning, and certainly this is one such thing. So in my career I’ve been very, very fortunate and privileged to work with a lot of great people, to touch many important clients and do a little bit around some great work. But I feel like this is perhaps one of the most important callings of all.

Ad Net Zero exists because A- we have to do our part as an industry to get our own house in order and begin to measure and track and lower our own carbon emissions in the advertising industry.

But we’re also doing it in service – going back to that word of service again – in service of advertisers, the big advertisers out there in the world today. They work with a myriad, a large number of different types of agencies and when it comes to tracking carbon emissions, the problem is, is that those few companies that are measuring today, they’re doing it a little bit differently from one another, so essentially it’s the Wild West. We need to create more of a consistent standard, more of a consistent measurement framework. So it’s more apples to apples to apples versus Lions, tigers, pears, grape. You know it’s very, very complex and it’s very confusing out there today. Ad Net Zero exists for one reason to basically provide clarity and consistency, to provide one common measurement framework for the good of the industry, but really for the good of the advertisers who, more and more, are going to have to track their carbon emissions across all of their scope 3 projects and work that they do and it’s going to be just paramount that that advertising also delivers the right measurement in the right way.

Pat Murphy
I was reading in an article that you did a bit earlier on the published earlier today, the importance of reporting. But – good or bad! So you don’t want to kind of sweep it under the carpet. It’s important that you nut just measure but report the good results and the bad results.

John Osborn
Absolutely, because we’re on our own journey here and not everything is going to be perfect. We’ve got to be comfortable being more roughly right than precisely wrong. But the fact of the matter is – and this is not rocket science – we need to get rid of the stuff immediately that’s not working and replace it and try new things, and we need to double down and triple down on those things that are working and are working well, and by working I mean the tool or the calculation platforms need to work, literally work accurately, but they also need to be workable. If we’ve got such a complex piece of machinery or such a complex platform that no one really knows how to use, or if it’s going to take, you know, six months to go through training to be able to fly this incredibly intricate helicopter, so to speak, well then that’s no good either! So we need stuff that works and stuff that’s workable.

Pat Murphy
At Ad Net Zero you focus on promoting a more sustainable world through education, measurement and action related to ad operations.  How do you see the advertising industry contributing to a more sustainable future and what kind of initiatives you’ve been working and what kind of stuff you’ve been doing recently?

John Osborn
That’s a great question because of the common starting point I often get is ‘oh, come on, like, let’s face it compared to other, you know, fossil fuel industries or other heavy, heavy, heavy manufacturers that use an awful lot of carbon in their various supply chains, I mean, how much really can advertising be contributing to this problem’?

Well, more than you actually think. Let me start here. On a worldwide basis. By the way, part of the problem is we don’t even have accurate measurement for the stat that I’m about to give you, but by most studies, advertising as an industry contributes worldwide somewhere between 2 and 3% of global carbon emissions. However, the influence that advertising has across different industries and manufacturing sectors and everything else, is a lot higher. It’s hard to quantify, because advertising exists to serve advertisers. Within the advertising ecosystem, there are core areas where disproportionately more carbon exists digital media. So, as programmatic and performance media rose up rapidly, it rose up so fast that it became like you know, they couldn’t tear the old servers down in time. They sort of like took servers, added more servers that talk to more servers in serving farms that talk to more servers. All in.0001 seconds out there, but it’s a lot of horsepower! A lot of energy being used behind computers and servers and everything else. So you know there are opportunities to clean up, develop cleaner supply pathways and to do programmatic more efficiently with less waste. So there are work streams, for example, that are happening today in the area of digital media, as one example.

Another suspect is production, and this is something Pat, you know more than a thing or two about. When it comes to production, you can really break it down. Anything and everything from the choices that are used – paint choices, are we going to build a set or are we going to travel somewhere? What are we going to serve at the craft services table? Is it going to be meat or vegan? All of this – even little things, like you know, quote, unquote little things like ‘what are we going to serve’? It all adds up to something more significant and within a production, travel is definitely around 50%. It’s a large, large bulk of the carbon emissions when it comes to production.

So within the advertising ecosystem, when you break it down, there are areas where there are problems. But where there are problems, Pat, there are also solutions. So in production, for example, Ad Net Zero we have a calculator tool it’s called Ad Green that advertisers and production companies and agencies are using today and we’re onboarding it with more and more companies here in the United States as we speak on this call, that are leveraging the ad green calculator and they’re knowing a- where they are today on average with various productions and they know where they want to go in terms of lowering those carbon emissions and by using the tool they can start to take steps at what they’re going to trade off when they make different decisions, taking carbon emissions in mind, as to what they’re going to do to create a cleaner production.

So all of this really boils down to decision making, I think at the end of the day, Pat and you and I have talked about this – how do we make decisions when it comes to a production? Well, oftentimes it comes down to money, or timetables. How fast do we have to get it done? Quality. Are we going big, anthemic here, or can we? Can we do this more, you know, more efficiently with less cost? So time, quality, money, carbon emissions is going to be a fourth factor. So it’s making better decisions faster on behalf of the clients we serve and the work that we’re doing. That’s really what Ad Net Zero and, I think, what you and others are doing out there in the advertising ecosystem.

Pat Murphy
And we’ve integrated the Ad Net Zero calculator into our total process on every job that we work with at MCA, as well as part of what we call a GPP, our Green Production Process, which is proving to be very successful.

Capturing that data is critical, because I guess we can’t manage what we don’t measure, right, John? So we have to get that!

John Osborn
I love that phrase and it’s tattooed on my brain now, so thank you for that.

Pat Murphy
And the other thing is I was talking to a head of production at another agency group. He said ‘look, we have this ambition in our production team, in our agency to do all the right things with AdGreen and making sure that we’re being very careful on our projects. But the behaviour of the overarching management within our agency group doesn’t show that it’s really real, right? It’s not really in the DNA of the business. With all of those managers, the CEOs and the various C-suite people all traveling on business class around the world, the producers and the production team are going. ‘Well, why do I bother doing this’?

You finding that’s pretty common?

John Osborn
Yeah. It is common. Every single action matters, whether you think it’s a small action. If you  add up a lot of small actions, guess what, Pat? It adds up to something significant. So, small actions, medium sized actions and big actions, they all matter. It’s not an either or it all matters.

Pat Murphy
Having been in those previous roles that you were in, do you think that that’s been able to give you more leverage with the right kind of stakeholders in the ad agency world?

John Osborn
You know I’d like to think so, in that I’m empathetic and I understand the pressures that decision makers and executives are facing within different agencies, whether it be a creative agency like a BBDO, where I grew up, or a media agency, which is my most recent role that I had at OMD. I kind of understand the pressures that are out there, but that’s not necessarily enough to give a hall pass. You know, that’s not like a permission to just continue going about our merry lives the way we’ve been going about them. We need to be smarter, we need to act differently and if we do certain things, it doesn’t have to crimp our style.

Honestly, like I’ve made decisions in my personal life because I think it’s the right thing to do and I want to do my part in trying to help the climate crisis and I’m not flying on planes the way I used to. And, by the way, we’re not saying don’t ever get on a plane! We’re just saying be thoughtful about the decisions you make. If you’re going to fly, fly right, fly smart. I fly coach and it’s perfectly fine. You can have some flexibility about where you sit. It ain’t that big of a deal! And guess what? I’m still getting from point A to point B. And any travel frustrations that I would have, you know they’re no different than frustrations I would have had sitting in business class or in first class anyway.

I personally had to make some changes in my life and it’s not that big of a deal. All we’re doing is inviting others to try and take the same sorts of actions and trying to figure out what you know fits them best, based on  what they need to get done.  I’d like to think Pat,  I’m a little bit more empathetic in that I’ve got a little bit of a diverse array of different kinds of experiences, whether it be, being a board chair of a non-profit which has its own sort of interesting dynamic to it, to working in a creative shop, to working in a media shop.

Pat Murphy
The chief executive of Mars, Poul Weihrauch, said the other day ‘look, profit can sit alongside purpose, and unless you grow a healthy business, you won’t make a difference’. I think that’s really important, don’t you think?

John Osborn
Yeah, 100%. You know, oftentimes people talk about the friction that exists between profit and purpose. It doesn’t have to be, it doesn’t have to be an either/or. You can have both. If you look at the work out there that has had the biggest sort of amplification effect or the biggest force multiplier out there, oftentimes it is purposeful work but delivered in a way that is engaging – a simple story, well told in an entertaining sort of a way that captures people’s attention and pulls them in and engages them. You know that is very, very powerful stuff, but I’ll leave it at that.

Pat Murphy
When I saw you in Cannes this year, we talked a little bit about the partnership between MCA and Ad Net Zero and it was great seeing you again in person. I have to say! We always have a good chin-wag.

What did you think of the festival this year? Was there anything specifically inspiring for you in regard to sustainable initiatives?

John Osborn
Well, I’ll put it this way First of all, it was wonderful and I felt privileged to be there.
We had a lot of our supporters there that were talking about initiatives and comparing best practices and learning from one another, so it made sense for us to be there.

But – and I have to be careful I mean the Cannes Lions – they’re an important partner of Ad Net Zero and you know they’ve got an important question now with the award submissions that asks simply ‘what steps were taken into consideration from the sustainability standpoint in either making or distributing the work’, which is really, really great.

However, I don’t think Cannes Lions has necessarily achieved its full potential today in terms of their ability to provide a more sustainable conference. You’re starting to see evidence of it in certain meetings and certain sessions and certain events, but just across the broadest landscape possible, there’s still an awful lot of opportunity for greater efforts and for that week to be more sustainable. I think.

Pat Murphy
Maybe they could do a bit of what Coldplay do as they go out on the road. Have you seen what they’ve been up to?

John Osborn
You know I have, and it’s brilliant! And what’s great about it is they’re able to explain what they’re doing in a way that people can understand. You know what I mean? Like – so much of this space,           people talk over you or they use jargon and complexities that doesn’t really land in someone’s brain, especially if you know everybody’s moving 100 miles an hour. You know through their lives, attached to various devices and everything else. You know we have to do a better job at explaining why and how folks can take action and why it’s important, but that’s one of the things I like most about it.

Pat Murphy
I thought that was really cool and it generated a huge amount of attention on them on social media. People loved what they were doing, but it didn’t really have an impact on the outcome. People felt good about going along to their gigs, you know?

As someone deeply involved in the advertising world how do you see the future of sustainable advertising evolving? You know you could go from where we are today to near net zero if you just use AI!

John Osborn
That’s right. But we’re not sure how AI is going to play out yet. It’s a frenemy. It’s both friend and foe at the same time. Well, if everyone uses AI, that’s going to be a hell of a lot more computing horsepower! Yeah, and that’s a negative. That’s a Debbie Downer. That’s an American phrase, by the way, for those not following along it’s kind of a big dose of depression.

On the flip side, it can very much take something that is an idea and, with a few clicks of a keyboard, turn it into something you know like… I’ve spent a career going into meetings where we try and explain ideas using foam core and lots of images and hand puppets and everything else, and sometimes the ideas land and the clients kind of know what we’re trying to convey. Sometimes they don’t. Well, guess what! Now we don’t have to explain it. With a few clicks of a keyboard, you can go in and say like, don’t take my word for it. We’ve actually done this quick demo for you. This is what we mean when we’re explaining what we’re doing.

So I think there’s a lot of benefit that comes with AI. It can help alleviate potentially a lot of heavy carbon, like travel and things like that around big productions. But by the same token we’ve got to figure out sort of what that means from a computer / server / horsepower perspective on the other side.

So I think that’s going to be another thing, another big innovation coming over the horizon line – well, it’s here and we’re having to figure out well, how does that fit into the overall carbon emissions framework that the advertising industry is kind of facing into?

Pat Murphy
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s just a just another tool really for creatives to use. You know, we’ll end up with a mix of technologies depending on what is required for the project.

John Osborn
But I’ll tell you this, Pat, I am a glass half full kind of person. I have no reason to believe. In fact, I expect that this crazy advertising industry, we will figure this out! We just need to help the industry figure it out. Because if you look back over history after big you know game shifting event – like how about after 9/11, you know this industry was like dead, like a lot of industries on its heels. Well, guess what? The industry came together. We not only restored spirits but we restored the industry and other industries along the way.

After the Great Recession, again, advertising put the boot straps on. They went forward, they figured it out. They figured out a way in that economic climate to do better work more efficiently that met the budgets of the clients, and we got our way through it. Yet again, this is a different kind of a bell ring, but there’s a calling and advertising will step forward with, with bravery and with ideas and innovation, and we will figure this out. All Ad Net Zero is doing is trying to fast track a lot of actions and put on the front ledge, you know, the right tools, the right platforms so that we can measure and then manage and then reduce carbon emissions in time.

Pat Murphy
I love the enthusiasm, John, I’m a glass half full kind of guy as well, as you can probably tell.

John Osborn
That’s why we get along pretty well, Pat. Come on man!

Pat Murphy
Now, the sustainable route is one that can bring different motivations for different people to pursue. My passion for this particular subject and I’m sure I’ve mentioned this to you before was when my son came home – he was out sailing and he came back and he was traumatized because he’d seen a dead dolphin caught in fishing nets.  I had to explain what was going on in the world, in particular with industrialized trawling. And then he went off to school and he did a PowerPoint presentation on how are we going to save the earth from the adults. That was a light bulb moment for me!

Was there a light bulb moment for you?

John Osborn
Well, I think really it was just sort of this. I don’t know, part of my DNA that’s sort of been baked in there, probably since I was a young kid just wanting to try and help others and reach down and pull others up when they need it most. But there was an incident a couple years ago I want to say it was like 10, 12 years ago I was driving on the highway going up to Vermont where I went to school, but I was serving the college on a specific task and anyway it was early in the morning. I was driving up there and I love owls for a variety of reasons that we don’t have time to unpack on this call.

And lo and behold, as I was thinking about this it was so weird. Literally out of the trees something moved and it was swooping down towards the car and, long story short, I hit an owl.

I would have run over the owl but I actually sped up, so it actually hit the side of the car and it crumpled on the street and I thought it was dead. By the time I pulled over I was too far away to be able to back up and retrieve the owl, but I did see that a car pulled over behind me and just by chance, I called around to various rehab centres and I found out that this person dropped the owl off at a wildlife sanctuary that specialises in recovery of birds that have been injured or hit by cars or whatever. And so this particular owl, a barred owl, was fixed up, it healed and three months later they invited me to come. I gave a small donation, by the way, I left that part out of the story. I felt so bad that I gave a donation. But anyway, they invited me to come up and I released the owl back into the wild.
But when I was up there releasing the owl, they were like ‘you know why this is happening? Well, the migration patterns have changed because of weather and now the birds don’t have any of the food they thought they were going to have. So they kind of camp out on the side of the highway and then trucks go by and somebody throws a hamburger out the window and then in the morning they’re sitting in the trees and a rodent comes out and eats the half, eat the hamburger, and then the owl swoops down. And when the owl swoops down. They have no field of vision at that particular moment and they don’t see the tractor, trailer driving by and they hit the side of the truck and they die’, and that’s why you see all these plumes of feathers on the side of the road. They’re actually hawks and owls that have been hit by trucks and you’re seeing more and more and more of them, which is my – ‘Oh, what a horrible story’.

So, your son the dolphin, me the owl, that was probably one of my big moments. It was really funny, when they sent me the thank you email, they forgot that there was a scroll on the bottom, and so I scrolled down and this person who runs the centre was like, ‘yeah, this is that jerk that was driving like 85 miles an hour and mowed over the owl’ like I’m like. ‘Oh my god, now I feel really guilty’.

So yeah, that was my guilty moment when I knew I had to lean in.

Pat Murphy
You had to! Had no choice.

John Osborn
You’re darn tooting! And now I found you in with it, my journey, and now the two of us together. Oh boy, look at all the look at all the additional things we can get done!

Pat Murphy
Yeah, absolutely!

I was impressed by reading about all of your recognitions over the years.
You know all the stuff that you’ve won and throughout your career, including the Ad Color Award and being named Young Global Leader by the World Economic Forum, helping BBDO New York to be named Agency of the Year more than 20 times. But actually that’s kind of all irrelevant when I kind of look at some of the other stuff you’re doing which I think is really impressive for me.

You know some of the volunteering activity that you’ve been doing, John, for the being Chairman of the Board at the American Red Cross of Greater New York and President of Global Dignity. Do you want to spend a couple of minutes talking about those?

John Osborn
Well, I do love being a part of the American Red Cross, just because, well, as they like to say, it’s sort of like ‘sleeves up, hearts open, all in’, and that is really kind of that defines me as a person! So we were kind of meant to be together. Back in service again. There’s that service again, yeah.

And then global dignity. I kind of fell into as part of the world economic forum. They encourage you to get involved in different work groups and whatever, and I kind of stumbled my way into a group that really had this idea that, in a world where everybody divides themselves up based on a number of different factors Could be religion, geography, political persuasion, whatever it may be the one thing that hopefully people can agree upon is a certain sense of acceptance as to somebody being deserving of a certain level of dignity. A certain sense of like – no matter how I look, no matter what I believe, I’m a human being, you’re a human being. We should be able to have a civil understanding that we’re two human beings, just as a starting point, and and I really love that, I love that notion I think we need more of that in today’s world as well. So I kind of fell into this thing.

Global Dignity was founded by the crown prince of Norway, crown prince Hawkin and John Hope Bryant, and Finnish philosopher named Pekka Henneman, and I jumped into it and it’s a very small but mighty Global organization that speaks to me and I’m just trying to… We’re we’re not doing a very good job of it because a lot of people haven’t heard of it. So I’ve got my work cut out for me. But Ad Net Zero really, at the end of the day, is something that I feel like, given my background, given my talents, maybe, just maybe, if I really put my oomph behind it, we can really make a difference. And I’m and I was sort of not joking earlier, Pat, I’m really pleased that I found you and I think the work that you, Murphy Cobb, are doing with your clients is true, and I’ve seen your work, you know, I’ve seen your work. I think it’s wonderful.

Pat Murphy
Thank you, john. I really appreciate that and the work that you’re doing is just incredible. We’ve got a whole of MCA, the whole team at MCA, right behind you. We’re so proud to be proud supporters of Ad Net zero.

John Osborn
Well, thank you, and not that I’m in any position to make an ask, but if anybody listening to this wants to know, like, ‘well, what can I do or how can I help’, or whatever, we’re only as strong as the support that we have, because as we turn this aircraft carrier, the more support we have. We’re always gonna have, you know, some cynics on one end of the continuum, a lot of strong, fervent supporters on the other end and a bunch of folks in the middle. The greater proportion of that messy middle that we get to come with us, the faster we’ll turn this thing and we’ll be able to really make a dent in this problem and get ourselves on the right road towards lowering those carbon emissions. So everybody listening is an influencer. You’ve got friends, family, clients. You know people that work at different companies. If they want to learn more about how they can get their arms around more consistent Measurement of carbon emissions, if they want help getting on the journey towards lowering carbon emissions, if they want help generally understanding what individuals or companies can do to help correct or get their arms around their sustainability efforts, just contact me.

john.osborn@adnetzero.com we would love to work with you and partner with you.

Pat Murphy
Oh, that’s brilliant.
Before you go, I need to ask you one final question. It’s the one we ask on every single podcast To all of our guests has become one of the highlights of the podcast. What’s your favourite ad of all time, John?

John Osborn
Oh my gosh. Well you know, in advertising we love all of our children, so of course I love all of our clients, all the ads!!

Pat Murphy
You must have one that sticks out.

John Osborn
I’ve got like a top five list! All right, pick one? I would have to say there is a wonderful ad called Great Idea for FedEx and FedEx, at least in the United States, had a great run of in a Dilbert-esque – that’s a cartoon – it really has a funny way of depicting scenes that everybody kind of can relate to, given what’s going on in business these days, and it puts the lens on why FedEx matters.

And this one funny little storyline is a conference room table with a bunch of co-workers and obviously the boss is at the front of the table and they’re trying to figure out in a tight economy, ways that they can save money. So they go around the table and they get to the nerdy guy and the nerdy guy goes ‘oh, I have an answer. Why don’t we use FedEx? We can save like 20% on our shipping needs and we can turn back some money’.  Nobody listens and they go on the table to get to the boss. The boss goes ‘I got an idea. Why don’t we use FedEx? And we can save 20% on our shipping and we can turn that money back to the company’ and everyone goes. ‘That’s a brilliant idea. Absolutely that’s the best idea in the world’. Everyone claps and says ah, that’s a greatest idea we’ve ever heard. Why do I love that? Because we’ve all been in that situation. We can relate to it and it positions FedEx as the hero in a very entertaining, very simple Some of the best ideas are really simple and I love it for its simplicity.

Pat Murphy
Fantastic! Thanks, John. I’m going to take that ad, we’re going to post it on our website page, theprodcast.com, and everybody can take a look at it there. Thanks, Pat.

Unfortunately we have to go because time’s up. I’m looking forward to catching up with you again very soon, John. Thanks for joining the Prodcast today.

John Osborn
Thanks, Pat, it’s been a pleasure.

Pat Murphy
Today we talked to John Osborn, Director for Ad Net Zero in the United States, helping bring sustainable solutions to the advertising world. It was a great and insightful conversation.

To find out more about the MCA Prodcast please head to theprodcast.com where you’ll find details on all my guests, links to their favourite ads and full transcriptions of all the episodes.

If you’d like to feature on the Prodcast or have any comments, questions or feedback, please email us at podcast@murphycobb.com.

I’m Pat Murphy, CEO of MCA. Do come and connect with us on LinkedIn or Instagram, of which all the links and the notes for this episode will be there. We’d love to hear from you.

Thanks again to John, my team at MCA and to my production team at What Goes On Media. Thanks for listening. See you next time.