Pat Murphy
Hi and welcome to the MCA Prodcast – your fix for everything innovative in advertising production. I’m Pat Murphy and I’ve been working in this industry for more than 35 years now. I’ve seen a lot of changes, but know there’s plenty more around the corner.

Each week on the podcast, you’ll get to hear from one of the movers and shakers who are shaping the world of advertising for the future, and we’ll dive into some of the key challenges facing our sector today and how we’re best placed to overcome them.

Today we’re talking to Melania Kulczycka, co-founder and client services director of Viewfinder Studios in Poland. She has supported the execution of projects using virtual production technology for brands such as Beko, Bosch, Veet, Calgon, and many others. Virtual production studio utilising LED screens, Unreal Engine, tracking systems and 3D environments is her specialisation. As a certified aerospace engineer, she’s an enthusiast and active promoter of new technologies.

Melania, thanks for being here today to talk about a subject I’m very passionate about, which is virtual production.

Melania Kulczycka
Hello Pat. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Pat Murphy
Before we dig into the virtual production topic, I wanted to talk to you a little bit about your background, because when I found out that you’re a certified aerospace engineer – my son is fascinated by planes by the way, so tell me a little bit more about that.

Melania Kulczycka
Yeah, that was a while ago. I studied aerospace engineering at Warsaw University of Technology in Poland because my mind is very science-oriented and I’m interested in technology and maths and physics and also problem solving.

Warsaw University of Technology was the straightforward choice for myself, but when I graduated I decided to pursue my career in the UK. I moved out from Poland and I decided to move to the UK where I started my job as a engineer, and it was related to virtual reality already. So my job was related to designing military missions for the Ministry of Defence in the UK. We were training a very specific position in the army. This position is called JTAG and before our company they were training just using their imagination. So they had to imagine that there is a tank on a battlefield or there is a plane or some enemies. But with virtual reality we made it more immersive and more real for them. They could see what’s happening. They could see their reaction to their actions. So this was the first time when I fell in love with virtual reality.

Pat Murphy
Fantastic. Did you actually sign the official secrets act? Are we allowed to talk a little bit about some of the things you did there?

Melania Kulczycka
Yeah, we are allowed to talk about it. Not in details, but in general. Yes, but I did have to sign a few contracts.

Pat Murphy
Okay, without breaking any confidences, tell us a little bit of some of the cool stuff that you’re working on. What are some of the things that really fascinated you specifically about working for the Ministry of Defence?

Melania Kulczycka
I think the best part was that we were doing something that was never really done before. We had to discover completely new solutions and you couldn’t just Google an answer to your question. You just had to use methods of trial and errors to test out a solution that you came up with, because there is no one who can advise what solution to use.

So there was a lot of problem solving, which I personally love, and I like digging deeper to find the solution to the problem that can help someone doing their job better. And really cool part was designing everything on a computer and then seeing it actually happening and seeing that happening in the training with the Army people and I could see that they really benefited from what we were doing. So that was amazing.

Pat Murphy
Now I’m imagining that it was a very male dominated environment there. I mean, what was it like for you going in as a not just a woman but a Polish woman into this environment? What was the reaction?

Melania Kulczycka
You know UK is a very, very open country so I didn’t have much problems with that. But I was the only foreign person in the company, that’s right. But they had another girlfriend, a colleague friend at the company. So, yeah, male dominated definitely. But to be honest, I didn’t really mind. I like working with everyone. I didn’t have problems with talking to people, meeting new people, speaking in English or working in a different country, so it’s not a problem. And you know the whole university was male dominated, so 95 percent of the students were males. But it’s not a problem. It’s nice to have women around, but I’m open to working with everyone.

Pat Murphy
At what point for you, did you know ‘Right, that’s it! I’m going to stop doing that. I’m going to go into the TV world’?

Melania Kulczycka
That’s an interesting story because my dad – he’s involved in producing TV commercials and he has a company called AutoFilm in Poland. So in the meantime, when I was in the UK I was working with the military, he was doing commercials in Poland and there was one client that approached him and they wanted to start shooting commercials using virtual production. It was a couple of years ago, so it was just the beginning of virtual production in Poland. But my dad said, ‘of course, yeah, I’ll do it. Even though I don’t know much about it, I’ll learn about it and I’ll do it’. And because we are in a very good relationship with my dad, he obviously told me about the whole story and that this technology is unbelievable. And I told my dad, ‘well, that this is exactly what I’m doing at my work, but I’m doing it for the UK army, not for the commercial client’.

So the first project form for my dad went very well, he was thinking that maybe it’s time to establish a new company. So I thought, ‘well, this is something that could combine my abilities, my skills of technical thinking, problem solving skills, with something that my dad loves’, and he told me a lot about commercials and a lot about films, so I love it as well.

So I thought that this is a perfect combination between these two industries and I thought that they would never collide. But they actually do with virtual production. So I decided to help my dad with establishing this company and, to be honest, I took it over a bit, so it was more like it was me doing the things and my dad helping me with everything. So that’s how it all started with VuFinder. We established the company last year, so June 2022. And since then we are shooting commercials using virtual production and it’s going really fast and we are shooting a lot since then.

Pat Murphy
So it’s a family affair? Let’s rewind a bit and just for the benefit of people who don’t understand what virtual production is, what’s the difference between virtual production or using green screen or back projection, which is obviously the thing that started back in the 20s? What is the difference between VP, virtual production and these other methodologies in production?

Melania Kulczycka
The whole concept is exactly the same. Virtual production is quite similar to back projection, which was, as you mentioned, it was known since ages. With back projection there was a projector behind the actors and an image displayed on the projector. It was usually used for shooting car chasing scenes, but the audience could see the difference in the quality of the image. So the physical props and the actors had a different quality than the image displayed on the projector. So it was definitely not an ideal solution.

But compared to virtual production, which is – the concept is again quite similar, but instead of a projector you have a large LED wall behind the actors and the physical props. And the large LED wall it’s really big, it’s like 24 metres long and almost six metres tall, in our case in our studio. And this LED wall displays interactive images, and it’s not just video. It’s not a 2D image but it’s a 3D model, so it’s a 3D environment that we display. So it’s like in a video game. We actually use the same game engine, we use the same software to create the environment as they use in the gaming industry.

And so that’s the main difference between the rear projection and the virtual production.
And compared to green screen – green screen is just a green cloth behind the actors, so the actors cannot see the surrounding. The image needs to be added in post, which again creates problems with keying the green spill and adding the images matching the position of the camera, matching the lighting. It creates a lot of problems. But with virtual production you can see the image behind the actors in real time. So it’s happening on set.
Pat Murphy
I’m guessing you get a much more natural performance from the talent as well. You know when they can actually see the environment that they’re supposed to be performing in, unlike in green screen.

Melania Kulczycka
Absolutely yeah, because they can see the surrounding. They don’t have to imagine everything, they can just literally see it. And they can see the lights because the LED wall emits light itself, so they can see it on themselves. That gives a very natural effect.

Pat Murphy
What’s the difference from a process point of view? So, if you’re an ad agency or a production house, what’s the big difference to be thinking about when planning a project like this using virtual production?

Melania Kulczycka
So with virtual production the whole emphasis is on pre-production rather than post-production as using green screen. So we try to compare virtual production to building like a big construction on set. You need to plan and organize everything beforehand. So the pre-production phase is longer, but then the post-production phase is much shorter, because usually if you have an editor on set, then you have almost a finished commercial after the shooting day. So that’s the main difference.

Pat Murphy
Do you have to do any post-production at all, or can you just kind of end it – after the shoot day, it’s done. You just do the edit.

Melania Kulczycka
Almost. Of course we need to add some colours, make some changes. It depends on the project, because if you want to add some things that are not achievable in virtual production, then the post-production is required. But if it’s a simple commercial where the virtual background is only in the background, then the post-production phase is pretty short. It may be a week in some cases. And if it’s a simple project, like if we’re doing case studies for our internal purposes, we do it within one day.

Pat Murphy
And from a client perspective, I guess they can actually see in pre-pro the exact things they’re going to have in the shoot, right in the environment, which they can choose to the finite degree, I guess.

Melania Kulczycka
Yes, exactly! They can see the perfect frame, this exact frame, before the shoot, not during the shoot. So if you shoot on locations, then the client obviously will see the location beforehand, but they would not see the exact camera frame beforehand. But with virtual production we can set the camera wherever the client needs. We can choose the perfect angle. Of course, we can modify all of the objects in the virtual environment as we need.
Pat Murphy
Now we know that virtual production has a lot of immediate benefits for a client, one being an incredible way to reduce a carbon footprint, right? Because you’re not having to go out on locations and you can kind of control the environments. You don’t have everybody traveling on aeroplanes and hotels and that kind of stuff. That’s one big benefit. So it fits with a sustainable agenda. Then there’s obviously the cost benefits if you start to put a lot of ads together. And then the third one, which is a big question mark – I get this question from all the agencies we talk to is ‘well, how much am I going to be restricted from my creative? Am I going to be able to do great creative work in a virtual production studio? How much flexibility could I have’?

Melania Kulczycka
So one of the benefits of virtual production is that you have absolute freedom of creativity using VP, because you’re not limited by, for example, laws of physics! You can create any environment that you can think of. If you want to have a castle made of foam, for example, we can do it no problem, because everything is virtual. You’re not limited by any restrictions or permissions that you need to obtain. Maybe closing streets of New York, it’s quite problematic, expensive or sometimes even impossible to do, but with virtual production we can recreate the streets from scratch, or we can scan the streets and then transfer them into Unreal Engine. So with virtual production you are limited only by your imagination.

Pat Murphy
How authentic does that look? When you’re working in virtual production, you know I always say, ‘well, it’s not going to look as good as if I went on a location’.

Melania Kulczycka
Sometimes we show a video to our clients we pause the video and ask them which of the elements are virtual and which of them are physical, and it’s not an easy question If you weren’t on the set. Sometimes it’s really difficult to say which of the elements are physical and which of them are virtual, because the technology is evolving so quickly that now it’s a photorealistic effect. If you want to achieve that, that’s not a problem. If you have enough time, it’s not a problem to achieve that.

Pat Murphy
This year we were really happy to have you come to one of our panels in Cannes at the LBB Beach that we sponsored. We heard you talk about generative AI and virtual production together. I’m guessing that the combination of the two is explosive. How are you currently using those two technologies combined?

Melania Kulczycka
We try to use AI as much as we can because I guess there is no other option. We just have to adjust to the current trends and we want to use it because it’s such a great tool that helps us optimize our work and help deliver the projects quickly.

There are minor things that when AI helps us with our projects like, for example, Midjourney or Dali –  the tools are quite popular and we use them to either show the ideas to the client, to be on the same page with the client, or maybe the director or DOP, show different types of lighting on the set. That’s how we can use such tools. Or we sometimes use these programs to generate images that will then appear in our virtual scene, so for example, paintings on the wall in the virtual scene. We usually use Midjourney or Dali to do it.

But that’s a very simple thing to do with AI. There’s so much more. We use AI, of course, to optimize our environment, because the environment is actually a 3D model and if you put a lot of details, then the model is quite heavy. It requires a lot of computational power, but using AI we can make it more optimized. In simple words, a lighter version of the model. It’s easier to display it on such a large LED wall. I will not go into too much technical details because it will probably bore everyone.

Pat Murphy
I don’t think so.

Melania Kulczycka
But there is one cool thing that AI helps us with, which is the metachumans, the virtual humans that we can create. This technology allows us to scan any person that we want and then transfer this person to Unreal Engine and then this person becomes a virtual human.

So we can use this person as an extra on the set, or we can multiply this person so we can many of  same person in one commercial. Or we can scan actors and then they can just display as extras on the virtual background.

Pat Murphy
That’s a bit spooky, because that’s partly why I guess the actors are striking in Hollywood right, because the whole AI thing means that they may be out of a job in years to come. What’s your view on that as far as ethics is concerned?

Melania Kulczycka
I don’t think that AI will take their jobs, because natural acting will never be replaced by AI. It’s not there yet, and we wouldn’t have metachumans or virtual humans as main actors at main roles, because you can still see that this is an image generated by a computer, not that it’s not a real person, so they only appear as extras. I think it only helps us with optimizing the work on the set, and so we still need real actors and really good actors, at least to scan them and put them in the virtual environment, but also to appear on set as well, because that gives the final natural effect that we all want to achieve.

Pat Murphy
So Viewfinder is part of the OTO Group and clearly a lot of the technicians you’ve used have been used to a different way of working. Do you have to upskill the technicians to work in virtual production in a different way?

Melania Kulczycka
Some of them I would say actually most of them picked up virtual production very quickly Because, even though that might sound a bit complicated, it’s actually not. It’s not rocket science. As soon as you go into a set and shoot the first commercial, you already know how it works, you know the benefits, you know the limitations of the technology. So it’s not something that you should be afraid of, because the layering process is quite quick, especially if you don’t want to go into a lot of details.

I would say the group that adjusted very quickly to virtual production are the DOPs, because with virtual production we also have a virtual pre-light, which is  – the DOPs, they need to set up the lighting in the virtual scene and the cool part is that you can choose the lights exactly the same as in the physical world. So if a DOP has a perfect sky panel that they want to use, they can use exactly the same sky panel in the virtual environment. Or maybe they can use two suns if they want to light the scene. That’s achievable as well. So most of the groups adjusted to virtual production very quickly.

Pat Murphy
I’m guessing from a director of photography perspective it’s much more controllable in a virtual production studio and of course you don’t have the issues around weather, if you’re a location, you’re in a studio, but you can control the lighting and decide how long you want to shoot, say the magic hour all day long if you want.

Melania Kulczycka
Exactly. You don’t have to wait the whole day for the magic hour, or you don’t have to wait for the rain, or you don’t have to wait for the sun. You can just have it straight away in our studio. You can shoot summer commercials during winter and winter commercials during summer, because we can create everything on our LED wall. And you know, it’s much nicer to be in a studio nice, warm and cosy studio rather than being outside when it’s very cold or rainy and shooting on locations where you are sometimes waiting a lot of time for the sun to show up or for the rain to stop or the snow to stop.

Pat Murphy
You are going to spoil it – these creatives, right, who love going on those locations, and they won’t be able to do that anymore if you carry on doing this. You know it’s a different way of operating, I know, but it means that a lot of this travel is a thing of the past as this technology progresses, I guess.

Melania Kulczycka
I know I hear a lot of that from our clients and the agencies that they, ‘okay, so that’s it, we cannot travel to South Africa anymore’. But yeah, unfortunately that is true. You know, with climate changing, it’s something that we should all be aware of, that we should actually limit our traveling, and COVID showed us that we can do everything remotely, so sometimes you don’t even need to fly to a shoot with BP, you can just be in your own country. So, yeah, I believe it should all change, or at least we should limit the travel, because we need to save the planet.

Pat Murphy
From a carbon footprint perspective, do you have much data to prove what the carbon footprint reduction actually is yet?

Melania Kulczycka
Yes, we try to collect data as much as we can, just to compare actually the traditional production with the virtual production. And we did a case. We actually calculated a case based on our previous commercial that we shot by the beginning of last year. We calculated the carbon footprint that was emitted during the whole process of producing the commercial and then we did a simulation. So we calculated the same carbon footprint if this commercial was shot using traditional production and it turned out that it would be about five times more carbon footprint to use traditional production than virtual production.

So of course, the main component is the travel. With virtual production you don’t need transport. You can just stay in one studio. But with this commercial it was, I think, about six different or seven different locations. So traveling to different locations just requires a lot of cars and a lot of company moves.

Also, accommodation, because we could limit the number of shooting days. We can shoot up to six different locations in one shooting day with virtual production, but with traditional production it’s quite difficult to get completely different locations within one day. So, yeah, we estimate that it’s usually about five times more eco-friendly virtual production than traditional production.

Pat Murphy
That’s a 75% reduction in carbon footprint by working in virtual production studio. That’s enormous. I mean, every single client should be thinking about this If they are serious about their sustainability plan. Right, it’s that simple, don’t you think?

Melania Kulczycka
Absolutely yeah. And there is a new law coming up in 2024 that all of the big companies will need to report their carbon footprint and they cannot exceed the limits. So virtual production will be helping with that.

Pat Murphy
Fantastic. Now we’re seeing technology evolve so fast, Melania, it’s hard to keep up right? What do you think the next couple of years are going to be like in terms of change of technology? Do you think can you see kind of around the corner what’s going to change? What do you hope will happen?

Melania Kulczycka
It’s quite difficult to predict because, as you mentioned, the technology is changing so quickly and you know Epic Games, they release a new version of Unreal Engine every two, three months and the changes are just incredible.

So it’s really difficult to say for sure what will happen in the future.  But I think that the virtual production will allow for even more photorealistic effects. For example, Epic Games, they announced a new dynamic lighting with the new version of Unreal Engine, which is a massive change for our scenes because we can make them photorealistic and we don’t need to bake the lights into the scene, but the light can be changing interactively.

So things like that and just one example, right, but with MetaHumans, that’s another big step and I’m really interested to see what the future holds for us. So I think for sure the scenes will be more realistic and we’ll probably start to explore more extended reality using virtual production, because currently the LED wall is located behind the actors and behind the physical set construction, but with extended reality we would be able to put images before or in front of the talents and in front of the set construction, which is currently done in post-production.

So if you imagine a butterfly sitting on someone’s shoulder, that would be normally added in post-production because it’s quite difficult to train butterflies in reality. But with extended reality it would be possible to do on set.

Pat Murphy
So big plug for the production industry in Poland – why should someone come and work with you guys in Poland instead of working somewhere else?

Melania Kulczycka
Well, I think the most important thing for us is quality. We try to make our commercials as photorealistic as we can and we try to fulfill the requirements of the client. That’s one thing, but I know that everyone is offering the same thing. So, of course, compared to Western countries, Poland is still a more cost-effective solution than the Western countries, which is probably the most important or one of the very important factors when considering an occasion for production. So I would say we have the same quality as Western countries, as studios in US, UK, Germany, but we are about 30, sometimes 50% more cost-friendly.

Pat Murphy
That’s a pretty compelling argument, I’d say. Apart from the fact you’re all really nice people there, that’s great!

Now I read an article at the beginning of the year that your father, Jacek the CEO of OTO Film, he said he hopes you will become the successor of the business. Is that still the plan?

Melania Kulczycka
That is still the plan. I’m in Poland since last year, so I’m still learning about the whole industry, but I’m learning very fast. I love learning and I think I’m quite good at it. I have great support from my dad, Jacek. I have great mentors at VuFinder, great mentors in the whole OTO Group. So, yeah, that is definitely the plan and as soon as I’m ready and my Dad is ready, then we’ll probably proceed with that. But you know, it’s a long process and it’s a learning process and I have to be fully prepared for this role.

Pat Murphy
Of course. Of course. Now look before I let you go. Finally, the question we have to ask all of our guests, since it’s become a highlight of our podcast. Melania, what’s your favourite ad of all time?
Melania Kulczycka
Yeah, that’s a very good but very difficult question, I must say, because there are so many good commercials and it was quite difficult to pick just one of my favourites. But the one I would like to mention is the Sony Bravia commercial with the bouncing balls.

Pat Murphy
I know it very well. I think it was an ad made by Fallon many years ago, quite a long time ago?

Melania Kulczycka
Exactly, exactly yeah.

Pat Murphy
Great ad! Love it.

Melania Kulczycka
The creative idea was to throw 250,000 bouncing balls over steep streets of San Francisco and then just capture everything. And the bouncing balls were all different colors, so the final effect looks just stunning.

You can see the cat looking at the bouncing balls, you can see the frog jumping with the bouncing balls and if you watch the making of it, you can hear the sound of the bouncing balls going on the street and you can see the alarms of the cars. Because of the noise that was unbelievable.

I wonder how long it took them to clean all of the balls!

Pat Murphy
You know, it’s still an ad that stands the test of time, doesn’t it? I think?

Melania Kulczycka
Exactly, yeah, yeah, absolutely, but I think it will be possible to even should have been in Unreal Engine now.  Why not?

Pat Murphy
There you go. Another plug, well done! And we’re going to post that ad as well on the theprodcast.com website, so everybody can take a look at your favourite ad.

Melania, thank you so much for joining me today. It’s been an absolute pleasure.

Melania Kulczycka
Thank you very much, Pat.

Pat Murphy
Today we talked to Melania Kulczycka, co-founder and client services director of VuFinder Studios, and we had the opportunity to explore a little bit more about virtual production.

To find out more about the MCA Prodcast, please head to theprodcast.com, where you’ll find details on all my guests, links to their favourite ads and full transcription of all the episodes.

If you’d like to feature on The Prodcast or have any comments, questions or feedback, please email us at podcast@murphycobb.com. I’m Pat Murphy, CEO of MCA. Do come and connect with us on LinkedIn or Instagram, of which all the links and the notes for this episode will be there. We’d love to hear from you.

Thanks again to Melania, my team at MCA and to my production team at Walk Goes On Media. Thanks for listening. See you next time.