Pat Murphy:

Hi, and welcome to the MCA Prodcast – your fix for everything innovative in advertising production. I’m Pat Murphy, and I’ve been working in this industry for more than 35 years, and I’ve seen a lot of changes, but know there’s plenty more around the corner. Each week on the podcast, you’ll get to hear from one of the movers and shakers who are shaping the world of production for the future. And we’ll dive into some of the key challenges facing our sector today and how a best place to overcome them.

Today you’re going to meet Richard Glasson. Richard’s the global CEO of Hogarth Worldwide, a WPP company and one of the world’s leading creative content production houses. In his 12 years at Hogarth, the company’s grown organically from 150 people, and I remember it very well to nearly 6,000 employees now in 35 cities around the world.

Prior to joining Hogarth, Richard was CEO of Gyro International, the world’s leading B2B specialist. He has extensive experience of managing fast-growing businesses and of corporate M&A. Richard relocated from London to New Jersey where he is now in 2022. In today’s podcast, Richard will be discussing how the world of production’s changed, what it means for our industry.

Richard, welcome to our very humble little podcast.

Richard Glasson:

Thank you, Pat. Great to be here.

Pat Murphy:

Fantastic. When I last saw you, it was at the HQ in Shaftsbury Avenue in London, and you’d just taken over the helm in 2016. You’ve been at Hogarth for over 12 years. Previously you were in finance roles. How has that finance background helped you in the creative industry that we work in, and what do you think is the key to longevity?

Richard Glasson:

I think – there’s a story behind my finance background, which I won’t bore you with now, but fundamentally, I think that it laid a really strong foundation for understanding how businesses work. And I think, I came in, you know, cause of my advanced years, I came into this business, you know, I’ve been in advertising now for probably about 20 years, advertising and marketing for about 20 years. But I had quite a varied career before that point. And fundamentally I believe that that business has got certain drivers, which a strong commercial background and a strong sense of what makes businesses successful can port from one industry to another. But having landed in marketing and advertising, I just loved it as a industry.

I can’t imagine myself ever leaving. And then, as you mentioned in the preamble, I was, I was previously running a, a B2B agency. And so the world of production was related to that, but had never been a specialist background of mine. And having landed in this world by some degree of serendipity, some degree of accident. I just find it’s absolutely fascinating part of the business, fascinating part of the industry. And as you know, one that is rife with change, rife with innovation, rife with disruption, and I found myself in the heart of a business which was one of those disruptive forces so never looked back really.

Pat Murphy:

And you’ve been through that whole last few years of pandemic. How has that changed the way that Hogarth operates?

Richard Glasson:

If somebody had said to me at the start of that whole Covid experience, that our, whatever it was at the time, four, four and half thousand people we’re gonna all have to work from home. That we were gonna be working entirely remotely for, you know, six months, nine months, a year. That we were gonna see, shutdown of the travel industry globally, we’re gonna see the shutdown of the high street globally for, for all of that period. I, I guess I’d have thought that we’d be bust at the end of that because, cause it seems, it seems inconceivable that, not just our industry, but that the world can keep on going through those periods of incredible upheaval.

I think what we learned was a, the huge resilience of the business. B – I think we were more advanced than we thought we were. I think we thought that we had to come in and work from our studio operations, and that people were sort of tied to the max and the desks that they came into every day. And clients needed their teams to be located in certain places in order to be able to work effectively with them.

Pat Murphy:

I was gonna ask you about that actually, because you know, a lot of what your teams do is using equipment. Yeah. they come in and they use kit, and they have to be trained on that stuff. And, and then all of a sudden they have to work from home. How did you  get them to do that? Was did you move the equipment to their houses? Did they work on different stuff? How was that to manage?

Richard Glasson:

It was different challenges in different parts of the world. I mean, fundamentally what we did learn was that our tech and our IT systems were…you know, if it, if this had happened a decade earlier, then I’m not sure that the tech would’ve been able to cope with it. Actually there was a huge amount of resilience built into our systems. And so everybody was able to remote into our server rooms. We were able to remote into our studios in the cloud, or remote into into specific desktop machines and drive those from their bedroom or their living or wherever they to be working. But I think that we did face different challenges in different parts of the world. So people who worked in, you know, the print part of our business, yes, we shipped equipment home to them, and we, we, we got that.

If you look at India operation, we’ve got substantial offshore operation in Chenai. And a lot of the people who worked there didn’t have particularly high-end broadband if they had broadband at home. And so, it was an absolute miracle to me that, that we got in touch with our our tech providers in India, and they provisioned high speed broadband to the home addresses of everybody that worked in our office within the space of a couple of weeks.  I’m not sure we’d got the same service in London or New York or, or, or anywhere else TATA pulled a miracle and got everyone provisioned there. So, you know, and there were times where you, you know, I would come into the offices in some of our major cities and walk around and it looked like the whole place was being operated by ghosts.

Cause you could see what was going on on every single screen, but it’s just the people actually driving them were elsewhere. So, but I think coming back to where you started that question, I don’t think that the pandemic fundamentally changed the course of where our part of the industry is going. I think it acted as a huge accelerator. From our point of view as a business, I think, you know, and again, I always couch this in, in very careful terms because we all lived through a lot of the tragedy that came with the Covid pandemic. And so I don’t, I don’t ever mean to make light in any way at all. But for us as a business long term, it will have turned out to be a good thing because actually clients have learned that they don’t need to sit in the same room as the people are doing their work.

That you can access talent all around the world, that you can join teams together in more effective ways regardless of where they’re sitting. When we look at areas like sustainability, when we look at areas like virtual production, that, that not everybody needs to be on location or on set in order to produce effective work. And there are many other trends and dynamics there, but all of these trends that we were, I guess, pushing to our clients, but where clients didn’t necessarily, and agency partners didn’t necessarily feel entirely receptive to that. Suddenly, if you like, the bandaid was ripped off all at once. And people were more willing to embrace the sort of innovation that we think’s essential for the longevity of our part of the business.

Pat Murphy:

Now you mentioned the word change, that’s something that you call out Indeed. I was looking at the Hogarth website, and you start with the phrase, ‘the production game has changed, <laugh> and expansive channels, audiences and expectations, seamless, personalised always on’. So is there one thing that has changed the dial or has it just been a cascade of lots of different factors?

Richard Glasson:

It’s an interesting question. I mean, I, I, I think, you know, in the dozen years that I’ve been at Hogarth, –  you’ve lived through every, every moment of this as well, pat. I mean  we’ve seen production being the activity that takes place at the end of the creative process in order to make sure that work appears on screen, online or in print, or whatever it may be, to being something that clients have started to pay a lot more attention to, partly because of the amount money they spend on it and their desire for more clarity on how that work gets done. Through to understanding that we’ve almost gone full circle in, you know, whether we’re thinking about filmmaking, whether we’re thinking about making advertising. We’ve almost gone full circle where this separation of creating and making cannot be relevant anymore or cannot, cannot work anymore.

And so, so in this world of exploding content that we live in, where you need to get the right message, you know, I guess it’s, you know, it’s always been the same thing for advertising, right message, right time, right place, right audience as well. But now, now we see this preponderance of channels and the idea that we could talk to not audiences based on simple demographics, but specific cohorts that we can target people much more effectively. That communications need to be culturally relevant. They need to be engaging. They need to, they need to not be, feel like they’re too intrusive. And, and we, we need to think about exactly how work works in everywhere It’s gonna show up. Then actually, I think if, if the making is the final part of the process, then a lot of the thinking is gonna go to waste. And so I think the fundamental shift in our world is that, is that recoupling of creating and making and, and that sense of end to end content, really thinking about where that work is going to appear at the point it’s originated, not just at the point that it is, if you like, adapted.

Pat Murphy:

Now, I was also reading that you’re making steps into Metaverse as well launching the Metaverse Foundry, that’s a global team of 700 creators, producers, visual artists, etc. Tell me a bit more about that.

Richard Glasson:

So I, I think we might be quietly dropping the word metaverse from the name of the Metaverse. That’s

Pat Murphy:

Probably not a bad idea.

Richard Glasson:

<Laugh> just, just, just cause Zuckerberg has done his very best to make it an un-cool word. So we’re talking more about the foundry. What, when we talk about the metaverse, we really talking about four things. And we are very bullish about where these four things are going. And so really we’re talking about the worlds VR and AR and can talk a bit more about what that means, but you know, AR isn’t going anywhere, I think is gonna an entry point into of what we might consider to be next generation of the Internet. Gaming is growing at a massive rate, and we’re, and we’re doing much, much more work in gaming for our clients at the moment.

And then, you know, again, if we are thinking about what we really mean by the, the next iteration of the, the Metaverse, then actually blockchain technology and web3 are super important dynamics in our, in our industry, which will become more and more relevant. And so, you know, I, I know that, you know, when people are thinking about blockchain or Web3, they might be thinking about NFTs, they might be thinking about, you know, overpriced NFT art and and board apes and, and, and what whatever else has been, has been out there and has been to a very large extent, hyped. But actually, if we think about NFTs as being essentially a web contract governed by blockchain between a consumer and a brand, then we are, we’re doing increasing amounts of work around loyalty, around engagement in, in these areas. And so whatever word ends up being used to de describe the next version of the, the internet, I think that this combination of, of, of blockchain technology with AR, with gaming is, is definitely where the future is headed. And, and we’re very invested in that.

Pat Murphy:

There’s been a lot of noise around recently about AI with chatGPT and and other things and how they’re using it, and particularly in filmmaking in writing scripts and writing music and all sorts of other things. Do you think you’ll ever get to the point where your next hire will be AI instead of a real human?

Richard Glasson:

We actually do have some of our addressable content practise, which is, which is essentially omnichannel DCO integrated with media in order to customise messaging and advertising for individual audiences and through all of the various addressable channels has got AI already built into it from the point of view of, of some of that, that moment of creation. I think that we should embrace AI as being an enhance of creativity, not an alternative to it, certainly not an alternative to human creativity. You know, we’ve always had our, one of our founding principles at Hogarth has been this marriage of human craft and creativity with technology and innovation, which is designed to amplify and designed to enhance that, that, that craft, that human craft, which, which will never, which will never disappear.

But I, but I do think that, you know, if we’re looking at a campaign that’s got, you know, a hundred different calls to action, why wouldn’t you use AI to produce 500 calls to action that then a human edits and tests and, and that we use machine learning to work out what is the most effective. When we’re looking at, you know, potentially, you know, I’m sure that, you know, creatives in creative agencies will be looking at some of the image generation tools, not to produce the final advertising, but to scan out different ideas and to explore more ways of working. I would say the ne the next stage of how we currently use technology, which is to take away manual repetitive tasks, which don’t add a great deal of value to anybody’s working day or to their output.

Pat Murphy:

So it’s just another tool in the toolbox. Bit like Photoshop was at one point in time.

Richard Glasson:

At this stage, I’d say yes! Whether or not that’s because my imagination isn’t allowing me to think about really where it’ll go. But I saw somebody asking a question on Twitter the other day, which was, ‘could anybody come up with a use case where AI in a commercial setting isn’t fundamentally about reducing the time or cost of carrying out an activity’? And nobody came back with a convincing answer. And so, at the moment, it’s a tool of efficiency, which should be used to enhance the creative process and should be used to enhance the production process, but I don’t think it replaces anything.

Pat Murphy:

Another area you’ve been talking about is virtual production and I believe you’re putting quite a lot of investment in stages with LEDs, your own content capture facilities. In fact, one of your postings I think from last year was hailing the amazing work that Reckitt was doing in virtual production. Is this to reduce carbon footprint? Is it a superior method of production? Or is it just to drive cost down for clients? What’s your primary purpose for doing VP?

Richard Glasson:

I think there are multiple use cases, which might address different areas. In the film industry, it’s being used as a default way of making a lot of the very large-scale productions. And you can see the level of investment that’s going into stages in, you know, around the M25 in the UK and in, you know, I’m sure in other cities around the world are very substantial scale. Within our world, I’m sure there will be the occasion where you do want to do, I’m sure there’ll be multiple occasions where you do want to stand up these, these very large scale productions for impossible sets. You know, if you want to shoot on the moon or you wanna shoot in a that you can’t get to, or, you know, virtual production has got a really, strong use case in those areas.

But to my mind, it’s not primarily about those marquee, huge budget productions. We’ve got a use case at the moment going on in Australia, one of our retail clients, Woolworths, who on a weekly basis, they want to with in their produce section, they wanna promote whatever is fresh, whatever they’ve got good supply of whatever they want their customers to be buying. As you know, shooting in retail, shooting in a retail environment is very disruptive. It’s very expensive. It’s, it involves either closing stores down or shooting at night when the lighting becomes problematic and all of, all of these things, we just built that virtual store. And so anytime that we want to produce content that can be put through all of their digital channels or even straight to tv, our turnaround time on that is now a couple of days, not a couple of weeks or a couple of months. And and so, so it’s fundamentally changing the way that that brand is able to talk to its consumers. If you take any number of CPG companies who shoot in interior whether that’s bathrooms or kitchens or living rooms, if you think about you knowing thats for different markets and countries and cultures around the world, the opportunity for using virtual environments to… it’s no fun shooting in somebody’s house. It’s no fun. It’s expensive, those interiors aren’t set up for it. Building those interiors in large studio environments, again, is expensive and time consuming. Whereas if you’ve got, if you’ve got this sort of limitless supply of environments in which you can, you can shoot in ideal surroundings with ideal sound and ideal lighting and you can stand up at a moment’s notice that it’s, again, it’s gonna fundamentally change how, how work gets done.

And it does have the ancillary benefits of not flying people around the world in so many ways. So it is, it’s inherently more sustainable. It, you know, it does have the advantage of speed to market because actually what you see in, you know, it comes back to this creating close together. What you see in the camera is pretty much what, what you can then put on screen. And also, you know, it’s not this whole will solve it in post. It’s not, it’s not pushing cost and time and, and complexity down the road so that, so that, you know, things are only appearing on screen three months later. It’s, so the advantages are so manifest and manifold that we’re really embracing it. And we, we, as you say, we’re investing in a lot more content capture facilities. We’ve got studios in most of our major locations around the world where we, where we, where we, where we shoot, we can go straight into edit, we can go straight into deployment in a time scale that was inconceivable a few years ago.

Pat Murphy:

Now, virtual production, by the way, obviously with MCA, we’re, we are so focused on helping to be the curators of this stuff with our clients during the course of last year and, and this year. And there’s just a massive difference in pre-production process when doing virtual production. Do you think agency teams are geared up for this yet or not?

Richard Glasson:

No, I don’t. <Laugh>, I mean that’s a huge sweeping generalisation. And obviously in any organisation, in any industry, there are early adopters. There are people that embrace it. And so, so I think there are, there were some very honourable exceptions. I think the current creative process still has too much about it, which is by the time it gets to thinking about how the work gets made, a lot of the decisions have been already set in stone. And so as you know, in the world of production, all of us who work in production have always argued about the benefits of being involved much earlier in the creative cycle. Not to have a sort of a vote or a point of view on what the creative output is, but to think about how we can use some of the innovation, some of the developments in the world of production to produce a better creative product, whatever that might mean, whether that’s in terms of craft or whether that’s in terms of using innovation to be able to again, think about everywhere that work’s going to be.

And so I do think that there is an education job to be done, because at the moment, I do think that there is too much where virtual production is being set up as if you like an alternative to shooting on location. Whereas actually it’s a much more disruptive technology than that.

Pat Murphy:

And it’s much more controllable as well. So yes, you know, you don’t need to get, get into conversations about weather insurance or anything else. You can control the lighting as much as you want, so

Richard Glasson:

It can be dusk for 24 hours in a row!

Pat Murphy:

Row. I, I see this technology is, is revolutionising the world of advertising production over the next few years. Completely. Yes. And actually it’s not just about cost efficiency or even sustainability. It’s about, I think it’s empowering creatives to be even more creative if they want to be. So that’s, you know, that’s my view.

And you talked a little bit there about agency teams not being set up and ready to go with this stuff. There seems to be an ever increasing, lack of great production expertise in ad agencies. Is the solution for you, Richard, to take on that role as part of your complete offering?

Richard Glasson:

Well, as you know, I mean, we were one of the, the, the, the pioneers and the, and the big drivers of the, what might be described as the decoupling trend where Tris would have a creative partner, media partner and a production partner across, across the whole scope of their work regionally or globally. And so we’ve always been advocates for production as a specialist operation where we can look at the entire needs of a client and try to organise that in the best possible way to get the highest quality work, obviously with cost in mind, but also, you know, thinking more about how, again, we use, we use innovation and and, and you know, high craft wedded with technology to, to get the best results. So I could bang on about that, but, but I actually think we’re moving in, in a slightly different direction at the moment, which is, again, it’s this recouping. I don’t think that we should have created dining one silo and then hand over to production to try and make it in the best possible way.

I think some of our most effective work and some of our most effective client relationships are we have that very strong integrated team, which includes some client team, it includes some agency team, it includes us, and it includes media team, and we’re all, and we’re all trying to solve the same problem together. You’ve talked about number of areas where we made very substantial investments in these areas, investments that we’re production specialist going. But I think that hopefully that reduces some of the historic territorialism around these areas because actually what we should all be doing is leading into each other’s strengths in order to put together the best possible solution for the clients. And we hear a lot about the trend for in-housing by clients. And yes, I think, you know, there are a lot of clients who maybe feel that they’ve outsourced too much of their knowledge about their brand or too much of their relationship with their consumer and do want to bring some of that closer. But again, they’re, I don’t believe that’s going to replace the need for really great creative thinking from an agency or really strong production expertise and investment in the future from companies like us or obviously the might of the media partners. So, so, so it is that integrated solution. I think that has to be way forward.

Pat Murphy:

No, I agree with you. And, and, and involving all of people, all the various different stakeholders in the mix there, in including further, you know, as far upstream as the media teams, I think is absolutely the right way to go.

How does a company like Hogarth, Richard, attract the best talent and keep them?

Richard Glasson:

Two different questions. I would say that if you’d asked me that question a number of years ago, honestly, to attract the best talent, whether the best people at looking after clients, or whether that’s people who are very interested in the way in which the craft of making things is, is changing. We might have struggled, we might have struggled against some of the creative agencies, some of the, you know, some of the, the, the real discipline specialists. I think that’s fundamentally changed because I honestly believe that we continue to grow very fast as a business. We continue to, I keep on using the word innovate, which I know is a tired cliché and an overused word, but we continue to disrupt ourselves and invest in different areas of the business moving forward.

And, and so I think we’re one of the fastest changing, one of the most exciting, definitely one of the fastest growing parts of of the entire industry. And I think people see it as a much more exciting and stimulating and interesting place to come. One will be very good for careers than maybe they did when they thought of it as just production. But there’s obviously a whole other cohort within our business. I think we’ve always found it easy or we’ve always been able to attract the best craft talent because people know that we’re a specialist in what we do and, and that the making of the work is what we really care about. And so, so we’ve been able to celebrate those people who are, who are at the top of their craft as being the heroes of our organisation, not a service function to to another part of the business as, as might happen in, in, you know, other agencies. So I think from that point of view, we’ve always been good

In terms of retaining people, there are a couple of different ways of answering that question, but we do measure the engagement that we have with our employees. We’re very focused on how we make Hoggarth the best place for people to come and develop their careers, the best place for people to be able to be their true selves and to, to enjoy the experience of work whilst developing their skills. And, you know, I’m pleased to say our levels of engagement are at a point they’ve never been in the past. I dunno if this is a general trend, but certainly through the pandemic we saw our levels of employee engagement increase dramatically and our net promoter score, our employees going record at the moment. We invest huge amount in training and development of people in the business. We, we believe that, you know, it’s incumbent on us. We’ve talked an awful lot about change this conversation and we don’t want to change by, you know, having people who sort of either age out or, or or lose skill, lose relevant skills in the industry. We want to continually develop people so that they’re equipped to deal with the technologies of the future to deal with opportunities of the future, to have real longevity in their career. So our level of internal training and development is, I think is off the scale. That goes down very well with our employees.

Pat Murphy:

Values start from the very top of a business, and you’re the CEO. So what are your key values? What do you obsess about and what do you believe in, and how do you bring that to life at Hogarth?

Richard Glasson:

We do have our values codified. We have the, we have them laid out and we very much live by them. I think what we have at Hogarth is a sense of belief, a sense that what we’re doing, if, you like has some merit, we’re here to try and promote a positive change in our industry. We believe we’re a disruptive force, we’ve got this restless mindset. I think what people who join our company find is to an extraordinary extent, everybody pulling in the same direction.

And so not everything about the company is perfect. I’m sure there are people’s experiences at the company that you know, there are areas that they would like to be improved, but what people do get is a real sense of common purpose. And so culturally, for me, an absolute absence of politics, a real sense of being a cohesive team, a sense that everybody gets the opportunity to contribute and succeed is, is, is at the heart of, of where we are. We talk a lot about very straightforward communications and and being able to have these honest conversations. And one of our values is happy family. And that, I think is a really important one because we define it not in the sense of, you know, it’s, it’s not motherhood and apple pie, and it’s not, everybody needs to be smiling at all times.

It’s like in, in a family, you can, you can have some pretty robust disagreements with people. You go through your good times and your bad times together, but you know that at the heart of it, you’re always trying to do the right thing for each other. And I think that that sense that we can, you know, we encourage people to be able to really say what’s on their mind and to challenge and to, and to, and to, you know, not, not just go with the consensus, but knowing that, you know, at the end of the day we’ll still be friends

Pat Murphy:

And then you give them the P45, right?

Richard Glasson:

<Laugh>, Fortunately, we’re very much a growing company, so it’s, so, it’s good. No, no, we, you know, we, we love we love the challenge and we love the, you know, we love people coming in who’ve got a strong point of view and they know who they are. They’re a few people in the business. So every now and again, they just say, you know, can I have 45 minutes of your time? And they, and they, and they, and we, we sit down, they tell me where I’m going wrong, where the company’s going wrong, what we need to do differently, what we need to do better. And that’s that’s invaluable. That’s absolutely invaluable.

Pat Murphy:

That’s great that you embrace that.

Now, I was looking at your LinkedIn profile just before you came on, and I noticed a couple of things on their Sports Aid and TASS. Tell us a bit about that.

Richard Glasson:

Sports Aid is a charity which supports the next generation of elite athletes. And so basically from about the age of 11 through to when kids leave school it, it’s about trying to give the right support to enable people to achieve their potential in sport. And, and very importantly in para sport as well. It’s an incredibly diverse organisation. It’s, you know, I’ll, I’ll make up the stats, but it’s along the lines of if SportsAid was a country then in, in the last Olympics, it would’ve been the sixth most successful country in the world from an Olympic point of view. So it’s incredibly effective at helping people achieve their full potential. It’s a brilliant charity. I’ve been involved with it for nearly 20 years now. And it’s very closely aligned with Sport England. So a lot of the funding for sports, say, does come es essentially via, via Sport England via, you know, from the government via Sport England. And one of the key initiatives within that is TASS the Talented Athletes Scholarship Scheme which, which basically picks up those talented athletes who’ve either been through the SportsAid funding or haven’t, but when they go to universities. So we have partnerships with universities and it’s about at that point junior athletes age, sort of 18 to 21, hopefully graduating them into elite programmes – either lottery funding or professional sport. And and it’s brilliant. It’s such a fulfilling, rewarding thing to be part of. They, these are exceptional, exceptional people with huge talent who actually, the level of support we give is not massive, but it’s, it’s enough to make a big difference to them and the outcomes are there to be seen. So I’ve been on the board of Sports Aid, I guess for the last four or five years and chair of TASS for the last two or three years. And yeah, it’s, it’s an extraordinary organisation.

Pat Murphy:

Now, before I let you go, Richard, it’s become a staple on the podcast to talk about our guests favourite ads of all time. I bet you got some cracking picks, but if you had to choose one of them, what would it be?

Richard Glasson:

I come down to a short list of three when I, when I think about this for reasons to do with my sort of  past music I was interested in: Maxell – Break The Sound Barrier with Pete Murphy sitting there in that iconic image. And Pete Murphy was as sure you remember, was the frontman of Bowhouse, who was a, who, a big, big part of my my youth. And so that’s always important. Guinness commercials and actually – certainly caused some controversy at the time, but the but the Tango ads of the nineties were just were exceptional.

Pat Murphy:

The, the old HACL ones, yeah, they were great. Yes. Fantastic. Yeah, so, so those as a bundle, actually, so not just one specifically.

Richard Glasson:

Yeah, yeah. Well, if, if you have to pick one, I think it would be the Vote Tango, the one they, I think they did it for the 97 election, didn’t they? But it was

Pat Murphy:

Fantastic. We’ll put that on the on the podcast notes and stuff so people can check it out as well. So I wanna say a big thanks to you Richard Glasson for taking time to talk to me today. It’s been a real insight on the future of production, the Metaverse, AI, agency production, and everything else that’s new in our industry. So thank you very much, and hopefully I’ll catch up with you when I next visit you in New York.

Richard Glasson:

Look forward to seeing you over. Thanks Pat!

Pat Murphy:

To find out more about the MCA Prodcast, please head to theprodcast.com, where you’ll find details on all my guests, links to the favourite ads and full transcriptions of all the episodes. If you’d like to feature on the Prodcast or have any comments, questions or feedback, please email podcast@murphycobb.com. I’m Pat Murphy, CEO of MCA. Do come and connect with us on LinkedIn or Instagram, of which all links are in the notes of this episode. We’d love to hear from you.

Thanks again to my friend Richard, my team at MCA and to my production team at What Goes On Media. Thanks for listening. Catch you next time.